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Mikael Eriksson
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If I post this in the wrong forum, please move it to the right one.

What do you all, especially the sceptics, think about the autoganzfeld studies?
It APPEARS to deliver different results than former methods for studying telepathy. It APPEARS that they have eliminated the steps that can generate wrong results. But I don´t know. What do YOU think?

Mikael
David de Leon
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Mikael, what are the ”autoganzfeld studies”? Could direct those of us who are in the dark to a good article about them.
fordkross
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Not familiar with "Autoganzfeld
but heres link to Bem=Honorton study

http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/psy1.html

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Ford
blurr
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Thanks for posting that link. Very insightful. I think that what is lacking in the Ganzfeld procedures is a control for judging what dreams resemble what pictures. How do you determine if a dream resembles a picture? If one person sends a picture of a Rose. The dreamer must dream of a Rose. But what if during the dream he meets a person named Rose? Is that a hit? This is where the studies lack. What exactly constitutes a hit?
In my views, it should be an exact match. In otherwords, a picture of a Rose does Not match Rose the person.But as with all ESP testing, any reference to the target object is usually considered a hit. Allowances being made because "ESP is not a quantifiable abillity". It seems to me that the judges should no be aware of the target objects. They should categorize the dream first. Then see if it matched the target.

Blurr
"Someday men will look back and say I was the start of the 20th century."
---Jack the Ripper
fordkross
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Quote:
On 2002-07-31 12:21, blurr wrote:
. Allowances being made because "ESP is not a quantifiable abillity". It seems to me that the judges should no be aware of the target objects. They should categorize the dream first. Then see if it matched the target.

Blurr



Why?
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Ford has a better idea
Mikael Eriksson
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I wrote the question believing that in this test no consideration was taken to what was said by the receiver, but the only thing that was taken into consideration was which picture or video he chose afterwards as the one resembling most his thoughts. If they take what he says into consideration, then I don´t think it´s strange that it matches more than it would statistically do.

Mikael
fordkross
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As previously stated, psi phenomenon is hard to quantify. In the experiments I witnessed, the sender and reciever never saw one another and recieved no feed back. In some cases the sender was a computer.
But let's go further. In the 70's I was asked to conduct a seance to contact Houdinii
One of the commitee asked Houdini the combination of their safe. Houdinii answered 38-43-65. One of the commitee said , that was wrong, it was actually 65-43-38. I felt it was a hit. The lawyer said it wouldn't open sage. I said maybe Houdinii is dyslexic.
Still think it was a hit.
If example, the sender sent side and reciever got beef, I'd think it was a hit
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Paul
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Give up Ford, you're making me hungry!

If the numbers were 38-24-34 and it matched the measurements of a woman at the seance I would also consider it a possible hit Smile

Paul.
MichelAsselin
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Quote:
On 2002-07-31 19:41, Paul wrote:
Give up Ford, you're making me hungry!

If the numbers were 38-24-34 and it matched the measurements of a woman at the seance I would also consider it a possible hit Smile

Paul.


I can see how this would possibly detract from the proceedings.

Seriously, the Bem data is difficult to dismiss offhandedly.
" , ? ; !!! "
- Marcel Marceau, Feb 30, 1945.
Mikael Eriksson
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In the example with the numbers, I agree it would be a hit, Ford.

Mikael
shrink
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Quote:
On 2002-07-31 12:21, blurr wrote:
How do you determine if a dream resembles a picture? If one person sends a picture of a Rose. The dreamer must dream of a Rose. But what if during the dream he meets a person named Rose? Is that a hit? This is where the studies lack.
Blurr



I think that could be concieved as being a hit when you consider we think sensory systems. In other words auditory visual and Kinosthetic. It could be therefore easily be interpreted that the audio part of the senders data had been recieved and a visual from the memory bank constructed to fit the missing data ie Picture of the rose.. #I think it would a hit.
David de Leon
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Quote:
On 2002-07-31 12:21, blurr wrote:
How do you determine if a dream resembles a picture? If one person sends a picture of a Rose. The dreamer must dream of a Rose. But what if during the dream he meets a person named Rose? Is that a hit? This is where the studies lack. What exactly constitutes a hit?


An important part of testing is that the conditions for what is considered a hit, and what is considered a miss, have to be specified BEFOREHAND, otherwise there is always SOME story that can be concocted for why something really should be a hit. You have to draw the line somewhere.

- I see a house

- Sorry, I was thinking of a boat

- Well both are enclosed man made spaces, and both can be fashioned out of the same materialsÉ

- Yes I see what you mean, I definite hit then!
shrink
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[quote]On 2002-08-02 03:09, David de Leon wrote:
Quote:
On 2002-07-31 12:21, blurr wrote:


An important part of testing is that the conditions for what is considered a hit, and what is considered a miss, have to be specified BEFOREHAND, otherwise there is always SOME story that can be concocted for why something really should be a hit. You have to draw the line somewhere.

- I see a house

- Sorry, I was thinking of a boat

- Well both are enclosed man made spaces, and both can be fashioned out of the same materialsÉ

- Yes I see what you mean, I definite hit then!


Yeah but Rose is Rose that could beconcieved as a hit. Would be like someone describing the picture out loud and someone in another room only hearing parts of the descripton ....ie the word rose.
David de Leon
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You are right, of course, Shrink, that the example given definitely looks like a hit. I don’t deny that, and the issue being discussed is very interesting. The problem I tried to highlight is where we draw the line; that was the point of my fanciful and invented illustration. This issue is only a problem, of course, if you demand statistically significant evidence. This is the kind of evidence I personally favour. I don’t rule out anecdotal reports because they are not quantifiable (after all some things only happen once), but because the conditions are not under control, thus leaving room for countless competing explanations.
blurr
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I still think that allowing ANY variance is bad. If it is not an EXACT match, then its not a match. If I take a math test and the problem is 5+5 and I answer 11. I get the problem wrong! And I can't argue that I got it half right. The first number is a 1. Or can I? I think I did better in shcool than even I realized!

Blurr
"Someday men will look back and say I was the start of the 20th century."
---Jack the Ripper
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