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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts 
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I tried once to memorize a stack just by brute force, no memory techniques. Just wrote numbers on the backs of the cards and started with memorizing the first then cards. Then added next ten, then the other ten. I got to about 40 cards in a week but then I gave it up but I had gotten those 40 cards into memory, not perfectly, but could call most correctly most of the time. If I went through all 40 I would have one or two misses per run. So it was not perfect.
But I gave it up for some reason or another. So now it is all gone and I took a look at the nikola card system which is described at the back of encyclopedia of card tricks, and it uses a peg system where you memorize 52 images or words, associated with the numbers from 1 to 52, and in addition you memorize one word for each card. I think this is the same thing that simon aronson teaches? And then once you have those memorized you apply them to the stack you want to memorize. The problem is that its heck of a difficult thing for me to memorize these 52 objects in the first place. The book says that you can memorize the first list of 52 objects with 30 minutes of concentration. 30 minutes my butt. I have been trying to memorize it for 3 days now, and have certainly spent more than 30 minutes each day. I feel like in this time I could have brute force learned about 20 cards. And then I have that other list of 52 things for each card to still go. And after that I need to associate a card with a combination of the two objects, one for the number, one for the card. This is a third thing to remember. That is like 156 things to remember, and even after that, I still need to remember the cards so they are in rote memory. And since all the previous memorized things are also not yet in rote memory, I need to get them in rote memory also. How on earth is this way faster than just brute force memorizing the deck of cards? If I brute force the deck, I don't have to think to know what card is at the 33 position, but with this method, I need to think okay 33 is m and m, that gives me the word mummy, and the mummy is one that is rolled in cash. And cash starts with a c, so it is a club, and also it ends with sh, so it must be eight since the number eight is associated with the sh sound. So the 33 card is the eight of clubs. Holy moly that is a lot of thinking. I cant do that amount of thinking when performing, so obviously this is just a way to get the order into route memory, but I am questioning whether learning all 152 things in order to then practice long enough to get the stack in rote memory is going to be faster than just forcing the order into route memory from the very start. |
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Kjellstrom Inner circle Sweden, Scandinavia, Europe 5250 Posts
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This stack is very easy to memorize, Joyal stack: https://www.joyalstack.com/
You can download the book as an ebook. https://www.joyalstack.com/memorized-dec......zed-deck |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1362 Posts
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YES - using a peg system (or similar) IS better for most people than trying to use "brute force" memorisation. People who ask the questions you have raised always seem to be people who have succeeded at neither.
Once you have succeeded, you will have much better insight. But of course - understandably - you want advice from others who have already managed to memorise a deck. You will find the vast majority have used some sort of system. (Although to be fair there is a minority who say they did it by rote, and that worked for them.) I challenge your claim that you had got about 40 cards into memory, because you contradict yourself by saying you would make 1-2 misses per run. In my opinion this means you had NOT got them into memory (but were definitely making progress). This reminds me of some posts on the Café where someone claims to have memorised a whole deck and it "only" takes them about 20 seconds to remember each card!!! Learning the peg system is a bit like learning the alphabet. We learn it by rote (when we are children), then with use it becomes second nature. We just "know" it. The great thing about an alphabet is we can use it to construct many thousands of words. We can even read words we have never seen before. That is because spelling is a system. Likewise the maths we can do with 10 digits from 0 to 9. Would you say the alphabet is a waste of time, and you would rather just learn whole words? The peg system is a learning aid. Eventually, you will just know each card-number combination. You won't need to think through the steps any more, BUT if you ever freeze up, you will still be able to use those steps as a reminder. The truth is it will still be time-consuming even if you do use a memory system. To be frank you sound like you want instant results - but it just isn't like that unfortunately. You need to put the work in, whatever approach you use. I learnt the Joyal stack, mentioned by Kjellstrom. It is designed to be easy to learn, but still required time and effort. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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> I challenge your claim that you had got about 40 cards into memory, because you contradict yourself by saying you would make 1-2 misses per run. In my opinion this means you had NOT got them into memory (but were definitely making progress). This reminds me of some posts on the Café where someone claims to have memorised a whole deck and it "only" takes them about 20 seconds to remember each card!!!
Well, I did say I had not gotten them perfectly in memory. > Learning the peg system is a bit like learning the alphabet. We learn it by rote (when we are children), then with use it becomes second nature. We just "know" it. The great thing about an alphabet is we can use it to construct many thousands of words. We can even read words we have never seen before. That is because spelling is a system. Likewise the maths we can do with 10 digits from 0 to 9. Would you say the alphabet is a waste of time, and you would rather just learn whole words? I don't think these two things are comparable. I don't think you could learn writing for example without learning the alphabet, and writing is quite important to me personally as a skill. However, having a peg list for 52 numbers and another list for 52 cards is not important to me. If it was faster for me to learn the cards by rote memory without any peg lists I would do it that way since I have no desire to have peg lists in the first place. > The peg system is a learning aid. Eventually, you will just know each card-number combination. You won't need to think through the steps any more, BUT if you ever freeze up, you will still be able to use those steps as a reminder. Yes, but it feels to me like the amount of time spent learning the peg system, then linking the peg image for the number and the card together, then getting that whole peg system into rote memory to eventually getting the card to number association into memory so you don't need to think about your peg system will take more time than just forcing the cards into your rote memory from the start. I have been 3 days trying to learn 52 pegs and I still don't have it in rote memory. Even with the alphabet sounds for numbers as aid, I still don't remember all the words, and often I have to keep thinking for like 30 seconds before the right word pops into my mind. Consider that 3 days of training to 7 days of training where I was able to get a better memorization of 40 cards by rote memory, meaning I did not need to think or use any mnemonics to recall the cards. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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> To be frank you sound like you want instant results - but it just isn't like that unfortunately. You need to put the work in, whatever approach you use.
Well, the book that I read the peg system from told me it takes 30 minutes to get the list in memory, the first list of 52 items. And 30 minutes for the second list with items for each card, so I was just wondering if it is supposed to be that fast for people or if nikola was some genius. I am now three days later at a point where I can get through most of 52 items on the first list, very slowly, having to pause and think for every number to get the right sound and then try to remember the word. Even though I can recall most words now, I would not say that is in any way in my memory. It would be like saying that the answer to 5 times 32 times 21 times 57 is in my memory because I can arrive at the correct answer by following the math and doing it in my head. Because that is what it is, I am not really recalling the words so much as recalling a bunch of rules that tell me what the word is. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2023, Kjellstrom wrote: Thanks, however that is not really what I want because there is one particular routine I do that needs the deck to be in si stebbins like condition where the mates of each card are 26 cards away from each other and I want to be able to go into that routine from my memorized deck. |
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JBSmith1978 Veteran user NY 392 Posts
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The best thing about a peg system & memory palace is that you can use them everywhere. They are an excellent life skill.
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JonHackl Regular user Western Australia 198 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2023, 1tepa1 wrote: I'd like to recommend Doug Dyment's Quickstack 3.0 from Calculated Thoughts. It's a tetradistic stack, with mates positioned relative to each other the way you want, but without the alternating colours of something like Si Stebbins. It's also algorithmic, meaning that, however you learn it, there are just a few easy rules to remember to calculate card from number or number from card, in the event that you forget one, or as a memory aid while you're learning.
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2023, JonHackl wrote: Thanks. Something to consider. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1362 Posts
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2023, 1tepa1 wrote: If you want to learn a stack wherein the two halves are "mates" of each other, you could indeed learn a stack like Doug Dyment's QuickStack as already mentioned. Or maybe you could just create a random stack for the first 26 cards (ensuring there are no mates in the 26). Then the second half is going to be all the mates of the first half. So learning the second half should be quicker. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1362 Posts
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2023, 1tepa1 wrote: 30 minutes sounds pretty optimistic to me. They probably wrote that to help sell the book. The answer is it takes as long as it takes. My goal was to learn a stack throughly rather than quickly. I used the Joyal system, and practiced every day, gradually improving over time. I did it during the lockdown of 2020, which was a good use of the spare time. I also did a lot of online geography quizzes. I think the story of the Tortoise and the Hare is relevant here. If you persevere you will reach your goal eventually. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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Quote:
30 minutes sounds pretty optimistic to me. They probably wrote that to help sell the book. The book is one that most of us have, the encyclopedia of card tricks. It is in the last chapter of the book. I have now the pegs down to a level where I can recall them using the rules, sometimes I have misses or don't remember the words so it is not perfectly in memory and certainly not in muscle memory since I still need to think of the letters for the numbers. But I just linked the first twenty cards to the numbers and I find that this image to image association is strong in memory, it is automatic. If I think of the cupid, I know ivy wraps around it, if I think of the arrow, I know it is going through a stack of cash. If I think of the dome, I know there is a man inside the dome. The part where I need to think is to know the dome starts with d therefore it is a diamond, and the m means it is a three, and that the man inside the dome is the word lad and lad is l so it starts with one and d is seven so it is the seventeenth card. I chose to go with the redford stack because I have the penguin lecture from patrick so I have access to the stack, whereas other stacks I would need to purchase. And the redford stack can be converted to si stebbins so it is easy to go into the routine that I need. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1362 Posts
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Great to hear you are making progress!
I just tracked down a review I wrote of the Joyal system - https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......714529#0 If you read the later posts on that thread, it is after 2-3 months of practice that (for me) I finally just "knew" all the card positions. Once you get to that stage, the more you use the stack the more you reinforce it in your memory. I also devised some exercises you might like (and other people have come up with their own). EG. Arrange the deck in stack order, turn it face down, then deal the cards into 4 piles, one for each suit. Have fun! |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2023, Nikodemus wrote: I finished creating all the mental associations for the cards in the stack. I made a deck with written numbers on the back so I can shuffle it, look at the stack number on the back, call out the card and turn over to confirm, or other way look at the face, call the stack number and turn over to confirm. This is good because I don't have to worry about getting the deck out of stack order when I am learning it. I am a bit surprised how the mental images are just retained with no effort, like once the two images are "melded" together, just remembering one of those images instantly gives you the "melded image" which contains the other. I had zero misses as far as the image associations go when I ran through the deck. It is slow since I have to think, but it is still interesting how you can recall the information in this way. |
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Tom G Inner circle SW Michigan 2923 Posts
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People's brains can work differently and you'd just need to work different systems to find one that works for you. Not a one size fits all with memdecks.
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Chris K Inner circle 2548 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2023, Tom G wrote: The only possible improvement to Tom's post is changing the last word to "anything". Well said! |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1362 Posts
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Brains are complicated organs, but the degree of variation between individuals is minor.. Just like hearts, livers, fingers etc. There is plenty of academic research into how memory works. It is basically the same for everyone.
Even people who win memory competitions have fundamentally the same brains as the rest of us. The difference is they put in a lot of time and effort to develop their memories to the maximum. Whereas most of us (including me) don't tap into that potential. These super-memory people all use various systems to facilitate memorisation and recall. None of them (as far as I am aware) use "brute force". The reason id simple - those systems are designed to exploit the way our brains actually work. |
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David Numen Inner circle 2094 Posts
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I learnt the peg system from Joe Riding 30 odd years ago. There’s work to get all the pegs but once you have them down pat, you can memorise a deck in 5 minutes and have enough functional recall to do many effects.
The drills suggested in works by Michael Close take your recall to the next level. There are some good apps that can help sharpen your recall as well. |
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Chris K Inner circle 2548 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 3, 2023, Nikodemus wrote: As somebody with an advanced degree in neuroscience I call BS. Even ignoring the clinically "neurodivergent" population (a significant population thus already disproving your ... "point"), what you say is, at best, poor regurgitation of poor understanding of neuroscience. Here are some articles so you can start misunderstanding even more right now: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neu......n-memory When you are done, I have friends at NASA who would love to hear your thoughts too (not really, I'm mocking you for pretending to be an expert while getting basic things wrong, in case you don't get it). |
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Chris K Inner circle 2548 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 9, 2023, Harry Lorayne wrote: I know, people are realizing work in Mnemonics is thousands of years old and they can research themselves. I'm excited too, now people won't think these things were created by the people writing the books! |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Is the peg system or other such mnemonic systems really "faster" for memorizing a stack? (5 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jan 31, 2023 12:32 pm 
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