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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
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On Mar 8, 2023, Ray J wrote: I agree with your sentiments, I don't understand magicians who try to remove the role of "fooling the spectators" from magic. If you don't care that your spectators are actually fooled, what is the point of even doing magic? Of course all performers concentrate on entertaining the audience, but this blanket statement can not be applied to all arts like there is nothing more to any art than entertaining. Like you would not say to a singer "don't worry if you are in tune, just focus on giving the audience an entertaining experience". Nor to a comedian "don't focus on whether your punchlines and jokes hit, just focus on entertaining the audience". Because in the context of a comedy show, the jokes and lines hitting IS part of the entertainement, the form in which the audience is entertained. Similarly in a magic show, the majority of the audience wants to see good magic. Unless you are doing comedy magic where you can get away with prop humor and the magic is not as important as the comedy. If you take ****ty tricks that no one is fooled by and construct a magic show with those tricks, no matter how entertaining you are, the spectators will not enjoy that show since the main subject that they came to watch, the "magic" is not there |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
I read a definition of art just about an hour ago, because it came up on another forum I am active on (not magic-related) and it was interesting.
Here's the interesting part... "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power." The interesting part that stood out to me is when the definition mentions beauty or emotional power. Some magical performances certainly are beautiful (to me) but what does beautiful mean when it comes to magic? Also, some magical performances have emotional power. I can remember vividly the excitement and happiness I felt after witnessing Doug Henning perform live. it was intoxicating. And I saw non-magicians who clearly felt the same way. But what about performers who frankly don't care a whit if they move anyone? Some seem to actually relish the idea that some will not like them. They crave shock value. And let's take it away from magic. Fine art has had practitioners who didn't really care if anyone else liked their art. They liked it and that was all that mattered. Many die penniless, their works only becoming profitable, sometimes hugely so, after their death. The idea of art being beautiful and/or having emotional power is an interesting one.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
That brings up an interesting image. At what point does it just become "ranting with tricks?"
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
I hope folks get something from these discussions. And discussions they are. Thankfully nobody is getting their nose out of joint, they shouldn't.
Iron sharpens iron and the best way to really understand what you believe and maybe more importantly WHY, is to defend it. And if, by chance, and it does happen, you find it harder and harder to defend and you actually find some rationale for the opposite viewpoint, you can at least consider it. To me that's healthy discourse. In the end we all need to decide what sort of performer we want to be. And then set out to be the best at it we can be.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
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On Mar 8, 2023, Ray J wrote: I interpret that definition to simple mean "art tries to give a person an experience". This means there can be a wide range of experiences art can try to give, some more deep and meaningful, and others not so. At its essence, the one fundamental emotional experience that magic has to give in order to be experienced as magic by the witness is wonder, astonishment or whatever you call it. Now, in addition to that, like with many other forms of art you can have other deeper more narrative or even philosophical concepts weaved into the piece of art. As an example, you can have a very beautiful painting of some neutral scene. Nature for example. It evokes beauty. But when you have an a painting of Christ on the cross, there is a lot more narrative meaning in that piece of art, it can also be beautifully painted so it evokes beauty, but it also evokes other emotional experiences like the concept of sacrifice, cruelty, suffering and so on and so on. It seems the main thing that makes something art is only whether the one who does it calls it art. Because anything and everything can and does evoke some kind of an experience in the witness of it. Looking at someone doing the dishes evokes an experience, but only if the person who does the dishes calls it art, it is art. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
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On Mar 8, 2023, Ray J wrote: I'm enjoying it. My philosophy is everyone knows something I don't so I want to hear what they have to say. Although there do be people who talk without saying anything.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
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Looking at someone doing the dishes evokes an experience, but only if the person who does the dishes calls it art, it is art. Maybe being able to answer the question to oneself of "why am I doing this?" Like if the performance is to provoke a thought or emotion about dishes it's probably more artistic than "so I can put another hot dog on it." Are rituals art? How closely is a tea ceremony related to Zen painting? If rituals are art (which I don't know) then does the technique practice itself constitute the art on a deconstructed level? Ricky Jay's practice routines (at least the recorded ones) certainly looked artistic to me. There's value in looking at a master's sketchbook.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
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On Mar 8, 2023, critter wrote: At some point we might need to abandon the term art (for a moment) and look at what the actual situation is, what is happening. This is in response to the question you posed whether ritual is art. So lets imagine two scenarios. In one you are watching a master dancer dancing on stage, clearly we say this is art. Next scenario is you are watching a ritual being performed by a Zen Buddhist monk/priest. The Priest goes through carefully planned and practiced movements, there is perhaps music or singing happening also. Now lets look at both of these without the term art, just the actions that happen. In both cases practiced movements are presented to a group of people who watch, music or singing might happen during both to create a certain ambience in the space and certainly in both cases the spectator experience an emotional response to what they are witnessing. So whether we call one art and the other a ritual, the similarities that happen in both are quite close to each other. |
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ssibal Veteran user 352 Posts |
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On Mar 8, 2023, Ray J wrote: There will always be mystery. Even a spectator that knows every single sleight in existence can be fooled by non sleight techniques or perfectly executed sleights. I mean, magicians perform for each other or spectate each others performances all the time and they are still entertained even though they have familiarity with many sleights. Personally, I have watched effects performed where I knew every single step ( having learned it the same way ) and was still entertained by the presentation. |
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RobertApodaca Regular user Henderson, NV 150 Posts |
I saw Allen Ackerman recently and he did use the Farro for the routine climax of having all cards as 4 of a kinds.
He did cover the move with patter "gonna give these a thorough shuffle" |
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1927 Posts |
Allan Ackerman has great material. Here's a trick which uses faros, but for laicity, there's no way the faros could explain the result. I got completely fooled the first time I watched it and could not get my mind around it. I have added this fun effect to my working repertoire.
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Matt G New user Boston, MA 77 Posts |
Nico's Faro Poetry is an awesome book, I highly recommend it for anybody serious about the deception in the faro shuffle. What a great presentation, thanks for sharing Claudio.
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balbec New user few 62 Posts |
In a good presentation, the spectator should not even care about the very existence of a technique - except if the technique itself is the topic, obviously-. So if anything, the tipping of a technique should not be such a big deal. Don’t think the Faro is an exception, here
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Indigo Regular user 104 Posts |
Use it to your advantage. If you're convinced that people are familiar with the faro shuffle, or if you are performing for magicians you can have a lot of fun throwing a faro shuffle into a trick that doesn't require one. That will help throw them off.
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Maestro Special user 801 Posts |
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On Mar 7, 2023, critter wrote: I totally agree with this. There are a large number of keyboard experts on everything under the sun, but their knowledge, opinions, and attitudes don’t generally reflect people you meet in real life, in my experience. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The 3 Card Monte has been the most exposed trick ever, and intentionally so! All con games have as a matter of fact. Has it stopped the public from absolutely running to play the games? Certainly we can agree it is more exposed than any magic effect. Somehow it still gathers a crowd and pays off.
To scream about exposure actually in a lot of ways causes more exposure. Heels get dug in and others get angry and blah. Sure it is wrong. Of course it is. But do you scream just as loudly when someone exposes the fake transfer in Cups and Balls as part of the routine? Or is it ok because Vernon did it? My belief as a performer is simply that if they are worried about methods I have done something drastically wrong in presentation. I believe my performance should take them out of caring about methods. Nobody really cares what key the song is in, they want to hear the song. This is for me and ONLY me. I speak for nobody else and do not wish to impose this line of thinking on anyone. I have never done magic as a hobby. I have be only worked for those who pay me to do so. My point of view is probably skewed because of it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
I would not scream if I saw someone mention the faro shuffle in a performance, or exposing the false transfer in a cups and balls routine, but I would prefer if neither happened, for my own sake. But because I don't get to decide what others do, everyone is free to do their tricks how they deem the best.
As for spectators thinking about the methods, some don't. Others do and find it interesting, its not that they are worried about the method as such, its just a natural inclination for them to think about what they saw. I have some layfriends who like seeing magic, and they show me videos they sometimes come across on youtube and they also tell me how they think it was done. Its just how their mind works and just because the presentation of the trick was good and they enjoyed it, it does not make them not interested in thinking about how it could have been done. The difference between music and magic is that there isn't a hidden secret to music. Sure there are things a layperson does not understand completely, but there is no secret method that differs from the effect. So no one other than people who are scrutinising music from a technical point of view is going to think about the keys, but in magic there is a secret, and the laypeople know there is a secret. So in the case of magic, there are people who after seeing a trick will think about it and try to figure the secret out. |
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Julie Inner circle 3936 Posts |
...and there's no way to "fix" a layperson's perception as to how a given effect was achieved, IF he/she really believes she knows the "secret".
Fortunately, not many are concerned at all with figuring out our cherished secrets. I still like Dick Oslund's KISMIF Philosphy: Keep it Simple/Make it FUN. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Jun 25, 2023, 1tepa1 wrote: This is actually quite wrong. Why do you think a guitar in Van Halen sounds so much different from that in Pink Floyd or The Who? Each can use the same instrument, but it is mixed and such drastically different, resulting in a largely different sound. Even the style with which they are played contributes. There are MANY hidden secrets to music when played on a professional level. (By the way I APPLAUD your attitude toward not screaming about things others do! I think the same way.)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1281 Posts |
There is a crucial difference between magic and music in regards to the secrets, I feel. The magical effect depends on the spectator not knowing the secret. In magic something impossible happens, and it seems impossible only so long as the secret is not known. In music or any other form of art, what is being presented this does not happen.
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