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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 9, 2023, Fedora wrote: Sure. I can't remember and I don't feel like going back to try to dig it up - are you full-time or part-time, and are you a newbie or how log have you been performing publicly for pay for real audiences? Seems to me you are newer (first few years) and currently part-time if I am correct? Just asking because my answer will be determined by this. I can thing of 25-30 ways depending on your level. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Thanks, I performed my first show for pay in late 2018, 2020 was a down
year for me, as it probably was for several folks, so that makes 3 full years and some months. I am "full time", but there's a tremendous difference between "full time" and "successful", I can't stress that difference enough. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Thanks for the info. You are still in the every beginning and what I call "the general" phase of your performing business. Most of your efforts have likely been in your performing skills, materials, and mental thoughts/visions. This is perfectly fine and normal for most in their first 3-5 years. Of course the pandemic years really don't count, however as I tell most performers, that should've been used to work on, plan, create, develop and being to progress on the business side of your performing operation so you would be prepared and ready for action when we came out of the pandemic. It was (so far) a once in a lifetime opportunity that rarely comes along. But, so many missed this perfect opportunity. I saw and helped some actually launch their new business ( or reboot/restructure) during the pandemic and are doing fantastically not - all because there was a structured approach, system, plan, and execution.
It seems to me, which again is very common at your point, that you are still lacking the structure and systems in place to apply in your business. That is what I would be focusing on now IF your performance is tightly in place. It will likely need changing or adapting once you figure out the missing pieces to the business aspects of your performing. This is why I always say these need to be worked on simultaneously, especially for full-timers, as your show and these elements of your business operation must align perfectly. So many times I see these two aspects actually working against each other. Also, I think you need to have a mindset shift to thinking about things more specifically rather than generally. You need to start moving away from surface perceptions and operations and start moving into deeper and greater understandings of things, which will lead to more specific applications. Let me give you an example as a point of reference. Several years ago I had a magician contact me in nearly the exact situation and place you are in. He was in his 5th year of operation, with the last two being full-time. He gave up his up and coming career in the legal profession. He did not have a wife or family but was in a relationship he wanted to become permanent but felt he financially wasn't there yet. He was a in town and surrounding area of about 40,000 people. He was only getting sporadic bookings here and there and not really even making a living. He wanted more consistency, regular dependable income, and to work more towards what he envision for himself as a magician. Initially we spent a lot of time dealing in perceptions and expectations. Especially pertaining to closeup vs. a stage (or as magician's say a platform) performance. He eventually realized while he enjoyed closeup, his real opportunity was in the stage performance. Completely his decision. He was in his own head in so many ways which was becoming very preventative. Even when approaching me for coaching, he had extreme reluctancy about actually investing in his business and the coaching he was seeking. He was having inner-arguments within himself (again more me-based thinking.) When asked where he saw himself working I got the same general answer - "I'd like to do private events, some corporate, not home birthday parties (but if I have to), and he preferred to see himself on stage in front of larger audiences (don't we all?). (He really had no idea what "corporate events" truly were just his own perception. He had done a coupe of area company parties and thought those were corporate events.) Up to this point this is what he had been operating off of. I explained this wasn't an actual plan or model and really nothing more than his own (me-based) perceptions and visions, but not at all a true reality. And of course he had no way or idea how to work towards this or make any of this happen. He falsely believed "if I can just start working and getting bookings, this will all unfold and lead itself naturally." Really he didn't even think that as he had no thoughts about it until I presented this to him and the "naturally" thing came out of the exercise. The first thing we did is deal in 100% complete honesty. He had to understand his beliefs were not honesty. The second thing we did was shift all thinking and mindset away from him. I actually told him "I want you to imagine that everything you think, have read, or been told that you have in your head is completely wrong, and to change both the mindset and the way he views things. While there was a little resistance at first (like there normally is) within the week (four days) he came around to what I believed was going to be the new ground zero and we could begin our work. So instead of thinking any of his default or me-based thoughts, we started working on his "business-based" thoughts and perspectives - from an industry perspective. His girlfriend was an assistant manager at a national change restaurant, so we used that as a general example. I explained when the restaurant was scouting or considering his town for a possible location, it was not based on the owner saying "I want to open a location here" based on his own feelings and desires. No, they did extreme market research into the community, what restaurants were already there, they types of restaurants, their locations, traffic patterns and volume, growth indicators, ESRI reports, and literally over 60 other factors and indicators in total. So many things to factor and be considered - AND NONE OF THEM WERE HIS (THE OWNER'S) OWN PERCEPTIONS OR BELIEFS! It was all market and industry-based. 100%. Now let me say, I am just giving you a quick overview of this here, in reality there much more to this but it was all part of his due diligence needed to operate as a true business to create the other facets of his Foundational level including business model, business plan, positioning, his actual business offerings, and much more. So after a deep dive in to this he started to see how this could be utilized as a tool for his business and decisions. (This should all be part of the Foundational work and process I speak of. When not, trust me, you WILL have to go back and re-do this again at some point causing even more setbacks and frustration until you do. The Foundational process really saves so much time and effort when done right and creates clarity for your business. So once he started operating like a real business, not a hobby or casual me-based interest, things A. became much more clearer, and B. things happened much more quickly. We began to look at his community in professional and industry ways as a potential market, not just of a bunch of businesses in his hometown. We began looking at facts, statistics, competition, over-served markets, under-served markets, the state of area businesses, thriving business, struggling or failing businesses, new businesses, longtime staples of the community businesses, and so many other factors. At the same time we also shifted how he looked at what he did, what he offered. This included shifting away from being the typical stereotypical magician. We wanted to position himself different within the community. I'll stop for now as this is a lot to type (it is so much easier to speak this than to type it all out.) If there is interest in this I can continue. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Hey mindpro, thanks for taking the time to write all that,
I know what you mean about rather just saying it. Any post I make more than a few paragraphs my computer errors out and deletes it. I personally quite like the business side of things, considering the amount of time I spend performing vs getting work, that's probably a good thing, i don't know what I would do if I wasn't fond of it. As for market analysis, my skills are less than stellar. Glad to hear that guy's doing well, I'd like to hear more when you have the time. |
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StephenRoy New user 62 Posts |
Fedora,
I appreciate your resilience here. Mindpro has given you a lot of great info and it probably runs contrary to your current beliefs, which would turn most people off. The fact that you are still here is a testament to the fact that you are willing to be open, adjust, and learn. It'll probably be a long road, but keep at it and you'll get there. In my time training Real Estate Agents, there's not one "moment" of epiphany where it comes together. It just starts to happen little-by-little and I'd push them to keep going until it is clear they are too busy to need me. You'll always be learning. In Real Estate, relationships are incredibly important. I'm sure MindPro will attest to the same thing in Entertainment. I bet he has relationships with people across the country and around the world. Those relationships are critical. In sales, we always used to say, "People do business with those they KNOW, LIKE, and TRUST." If they don't know you, they'll not bother. If they know you but don't like you, it's worse, and if they don't trust you, it's over - move on to a different profession. I'd also been a production technician in Las Vegas since the 1990's. Recently, I moved back "home" to the midwest, due to a divorce and aging family. This is were I started in show business back in the 1980's/90's (Real Estate is just another form of "show" business). I know people, they like me, and they know I'm knowledgeable about a few things. I began just "helping" with shows around the area. An opportunity came up for a tech position at our regional road house for touring productions. I applied and stayed open and honest. I needed the job, even though it was probably beneath my skill level. They hired someone else. However, they made me the Production Stage Manager for the whole theater. The bookers book the shows, the Tech Prod Manager advances them, and I meet the trucks at the door, get the stage crew going, interact with production management, make sure the front of house staff has what they need and, most importantly, make sure the show is up and running by the time the paying audience sits in our auditorium. There was a need for that in the facility and I was knowledgeable enough and experienced enough that I solved that problem and got hired for a job they weren't even hiring for! Relationships are important! Interestingly, I now have access to economic information that I've never considered before. We are the #3 road house in the nation (<2,500 seats) and are growing rapidly. We are already booking way out into 2024. It is an interesting dynamic of what is happening in our area: People are tired of being cooped up from he pandemic (and MidWest winters) are coming out in droves, craving "togetherness" and "entertainment." Many of our tours sell out! Our market is rather affluent, so they can afford to bring in first run tours direct from Broadway along with comedians, music tours, etc. in addition to our regular rotation of arts groups of the Symphony, Ballet, and Opera. The economic impact of all this is amazing. One week of a Broadway tour in our theater adds an additional $3,500,000 into our local economy in terms of ancillary spending (hotels, restraurants, museums, parking, etc). That's happeing all the time! Our venue fills a need in the community that's bigger than just us. Get out in your market and meet people (I'm sure you already are), but not to try sell them. Just get to know them. Find out what their issues are, what they need and LEARN. In real estate (again), we used to say, Real Estate happens at the corner of Life & Change. Look for change in your market and ask yourself how you can get in front of it. You have to be able to ADD VALUE before anyone will even consider talking to you. Why would anyone work with you? "I'm a good magician" or "I'm the best real estate agent" is not the answer. There's more to putting on a show (production, finance, booking, negotiation, sales, facilities, labor, marketing) or selling a house (negotiation, stress/emotional management, moving, bills, schools, financing, etc., etc.). There are 1.2 million real estate agents in the US vying for that one sale. Each has a different value proposition, so why would someone choose one over the rest? Similarly, there a lot of magicians, musicians, jugglers, circus performers, belly dancers, variety entertainer, etc., etc., etc. that provide entertainment. All are vying for a smattering of available gigs. Why would anyone use any one when there are so many others that will easily discount themselves just to get a gig that might not even book anybody? What is YOUR value proposition? Forget the act & the magic for a second. There's only one you. What do YOU offer that's of value to those needing services? One last thing: Mindpro mentioned something interesting. Back when I was doing my own shows, I used to produce them in small theaters and I always got extra gigs from them. It's like real estate agents doing open houses. If I ever end up going back to doing my own shows again, I'd probably return to that model as it has worked for me in the past. I was apparently adding value and solving problems for people they didn't know they had while building credibility for myself. There was always some one calling or coming up after the show, menationing they had a luncheon or event coming up and needed entertainment. They'd alway ask if was I interested in helping them. Funny, I always thought David Copperfield did all those TV specials just to help sell his touring performances. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Hey Stephen, thanks so much for the contribution, very interesting story.
2500 seats is a lot for a roadhouse. Interesting you bring up the added value to the local area, not something I hear about very often in relation to a show. Sorry for the slow reply, I'm shuffling a few things at the moment. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I think it it quite clear your problem isn’t being a magician. Your problem is that you don’t know how to establish that you add value. You don’t know how to establish meaningful relationships with clients seems to be a big issue. You have only been working for a little while and are greener then a pepper tree
In short your issues are being very new to the business and not realizing this matters and others can see it quite clearly and easily. The habits you cultivate now as you are growing are the habits you will have forever. You need to get out of your own way.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
I agree about he habits you embrace and have now will have lasting affects, that's for sure we see it her everyrday.
In his defense he did start this thread https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......forum=44 but wasn't getting any decent or meaty guidance. You were on your vacation and nearly every post of mine was being altered or removed at he time so I choose to stay out of this to see what type of advice he was offered. And as you can see nothing much just some surface thoughts. But the real interesting takeaway from this thread to me is Fedoras final thoughts or takeaway on it - "Explaining benefits for entertainment can be tricky, especially verbally." This is interesting as this conclusion of his is more me-based thinking that we've seen here when he then surmises his own conclusion - which is quite incorrect. In reality value and benefits can be greatly be offered and presented, especially with live entertainment (sometime more and easier than other types of business. No one really addressed his question of "how do you present the benefits of your service?" No one addressed it because most performers struggle with this very much. This is because they only operate again on the surface level. If you truly understand a situation there is much more than meets they eye and it becomes quite easy to know how to present benefits and value as a live entertainer. It pains me to see topic and threads like this go unaddressed or even worse provide poor or incorrect information. This does no one any good. As I've always said this is where performers come for solid business insights and learning. It is this value and benefits that I believe was missing from his meeting with the girl event venue owner being discussed in this thread. Now he has heard from her and has another chance to correct this, even after his first impression, and I worry that this issue still has not been satisified or resolved. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Thanks for the posts, I was somewhat disappointed that that thread didn't go anywhere,
seems like a fairly important topic. Yes, I've made time to see her this evening, I'll let you know how it goes. I'm going to continue with my original deal in mind, as I don't have time to pivot at this point. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
He also seems to be moving down the much traveled magician road of not understanding the benefits or value proposition, and then assuming it and getting it wrong.
Restaurant magicians make this mistake ALL THE TIME. I will elaborate. Magician walks in and makes the claim he will “increase your bottom line” to a restaurant owner. The owner IMMEDIATELY knows it is a ridiculous claim and quite often that alone is enough to run off the sales attempt. What is so wrong with this claim? Well lets think about it for a second. Fist off show me a line on a spread sheet that you can DIRECTLY claim responsibility for as a magician. There are SO MANY factors that go into the bottom line it is unimaginable. Weather, holidays, local events, movie releases, sports games, local school events, and on and on and on. So unless you have year over year comparisons the idea is erroneous to begin with. The next thing to understand is that when a restaurant pays you, it is with money that they get from selling food/drinks. So the payback ratio is not 1 to 1. It is more something like 4 or 5 times to one. Meaning that if they pay you $100 to come do magic on family night, they have to sell $400 or $500 in food/drinks just because YOU are there to be EVEN. That is not making a dime in profit. (Pre tax needless to say.) If your are not directly responsible for bringing in that much business and can prove that it happened ONLY because of you (Not that they liked you when they saw you but YOU DREW THEM IN.) then they are in the hole employing you. And that hole gets deeper and deeper each and every night you are there. Now lets say it is a bad night with weather or any of the things I have mentioned. Do you blame it on the weather? Well the owner will blame it on you because YOU CLAIMED you will increase the bottom line without understanding exactly what that claim means. When you went into the place without an understanding of what it takes to run that business or how you can provide a value to them business or what the benefits of you being there it was a major mistake. It makes them take you less than seriously in the entire proposition. People like to work with those who can benefit them. When you don’t show how this can happen the idea of working with you falls on very deaf ears. It shows that you have a lack of ability and knowledge. With all due respect with only so few years doing this maybe it is a better time to concentrate on building your own value before you try to transfer it to someone else. Until you realize you actual value to others and can communicate that value you will keep running into this type of thing. That goes for ANY walk of life! Not just magic. Moving forward with the deal you had in mind if it was flawed will do you no good and them no good and do nothing but get you a reputation for failure. There is always time to pivot to the right thing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Well, today was interesting.
The story is long, so I'll tell it in the morning, but the meeting was successful, in terms of getting what I was originally seeking. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
I got to the venue and an event was already going on, I found the owner at the
gate, but she was to busy to talk to me, so she directed me to her event coordinator. As I mentioned, the venue is outside, and being outside it was also quite windy. I introduced myself to her, and at that moment a gust of wind lifted the tent we were standing under, next thing I know, I'm holding onto a large canopy, keeping it from blowing away. Six guys rushed over and cut the tarp loose, they than tried to carry it away against the wind, took 5 minutes to get clear. She had a number of things on her plate to say the least. My pitch was short, composed of what I do for clients. I got zero resistance, she added me to the venue preferred vendor list right there. I'm glad that no one asked me to perform in that wind. Well, not "no one", the venue has a floating Pier on water, and I got the idea to go stand on it. A group of folks came up and asked me to show them something, at this point the Pier's rocking, and I'm rocking in the wind. There was also alcohol served there, that's going to be important in a second. I got the idea to perform a sponge ball routine, my mind was clearly on vacation for that 2 minutes. I also had some rubberbands on my arm, under my sleeve, this didn't stop a guy from reaching into my sleeve to snap me with a band. Individually, none of this is interesting, but all this happened in 120 seconds on a floating Pier in a wind storm, memorable is a good word for it. Sorry to make this post into a "blog", hopefully we can move onto more useful things. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Oh boy, so many immediate thoughts about this. So much to say and think about.
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Undoubtedly, thanks for the contributions in this thread and others, it is helpful.
I did have more considerations I would have liked to bring up, but there were numerous time and whether issues. Although not relevant, I can now say I've performed on a floating pier, strongly recommend against it. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Interesting that you followed “The meeting was successful” with that post. I can not name anything about that I’d consider successful.
Interesting that you just couldn’t help but try to perform something for someone. Yea people “asked “ You but clearly the only way there could have possibly known was you told them. At least let’s be honest about it. You apparently had what you wanted, why not leave? A professional would have. I wish more spectators would snap the rubber bands so magicians stop putting them in their wrist like a 12 year old with a paper route. I mean going to a business meeting that may not be the best look. I’m glad it was a success to you. If you achieved your goal that is all which is important. There are pages of things to unpack, but if you’re happy then mission accomplished.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
I agree so much about the rubber band thing, I keep the bands half
way up my arm so they'll be hidden by my sleeve, I have no idea how the inebriated man saw them. Yes, he had to reach all the way up my sleeve to get to them. yeah, leaving immediately would have been a good idea. They knew because a person who was around during the tent fiasco was still with me, and they told them. My goal was less then lofty, I can think of better deals and outcomes, I can also think of worse, falling into the water comes to mind. Thanks Danny for your patience throughout this thread. |
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StephenRoy New user 62 Posts |
So, you are on the vendor list. Congrats!
Now what? |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The issue I have with so called vendor lists is they are passive. In the future try a more aggressive pro active way to contact the folks having parties. Something you are in control of and can take action on. Not something where you set it up for the phone to hopefully ring.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Yes, I agree, a better deal would have been to have access to their clients,
either through contact info, or being present during client tours and the like. These were the considerations I didn't get the chance to talk about, although it may come up in the future. As for "now what?", there's probably a dozen plus venues with a half hour of me, having a relationship with all of them is a worthwhile effort. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You want to do client tours with them? They have no idea who you are and more importantly how can you possibly have enough time to do such a thing? Will you be selling yourself or the venue?
As for the dozen or so venues maybe you want to think about that. Maybe you are trying this too soon. Maybe you need to build your own value before you can think about how you can add value for them. I’m sorry but with so little experience you will be perceived as such. You don’t see what happened but she blew you off. She pawned you off on an underling and that person put you on a list and you were happy with this. Even if you get the same relationship with the 12 other places what do you have? What makes it worthwhile? Being on a million lists that get you no work is worthless. Get yourself some time in the industry. (And for the love of heaven please stop wearing rubber bands on your wrist.) Again I don’t think your problem is being perceived as a magician at all. They seem to see you for what you are as inexperienced and new. It shows in so many ways. Be honest here. You went out on that platform specifically hoping someone would ask you to do a trick. Everyone here knows it. You thought that if you could just show them what you can do for these guests all sorts of offers would happen. Things work way different than you think and the only way to see this is experience. You need good judgement and that comes from experience. Most experience comes from bad judgement. But if you do want to work with these places in the future don’t burn the bridge now by having them remember you as the inexperienced guy. I always tell comics never to do Open mic nights in clubs they want to headline. They will never be seen as anything but an open mic guy. That perception will never change. If you make these mistakes here for these people they will not forget. Maybe you’re better off gaining experience before going after them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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