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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
This has come up a number of times on the Café, but I have my own story to share.
I've been trying to build relationships with local venues, after all, a great many local events are booked at such dedicated facilities. recently, I contacted a particular one, and in the initial contact I referred to myself as a "live entertainer" as I usually do. And we had some positive exchanges, I was building up to making an appointment in person, and then the dreaded question came up: "what sort of performer are you?" And I answered truthfully, with a response that included the word "magician", i haven't heard back from her yet, nor am I expecting to. To put it in the form of an analogy, imagine you're in a conversation with a moderately attractive woman, and things are going well. She asks what you do, you lie and say your a doctor, She asks what car you drive, you lie and say a BMW, she asks how tall you are, you lie and say 5'10. Everything is great, she's just your type, gullible. But then she asks: "what part of town do you live?" and you accidentally answer truthfully: "I live on the west side, with my mother". Being a magician is like living with your mother. So, to get to the point, some folks try to get around this by pretending to be something else, like the excessively high number of magicians that realized it wasn't cool, so they call themselves "mentalists" instead. I'm considering being similarly dodgy, specifically, dropping the word "magician" and just leave "Illusionist", now you may be thinking, "don't you also perform close up?" Yes, I do, and I have a solution: "close up illusionist". you might be thinking: "that's not a real thing", true, but 99.9 percent of the population has no idea. In closing, what have you done to dance around this? and what have you lied about recently? I have to go now; my moderately attractive girlfriend wants me to leave the office early, so I can drive her in my BMW to a tall guy convention I was invited to. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I have never had it be anything but a positive. As a matter of fact a huge positive.
Why on earth without you dance around the very thing you are? I don’t think it is an overall issue as much as your issue. Heck in New York they have a show that is $180 a ticket to see close up magic before tax! Tell me people perceive magic as bad. If venues perceive you this way it is on you, not in magic in general. Don’t avoid what you offer. Don’t deny it it dance around it. Be it. Because fact is once you start dancing around and being insecure about it then it does show a lack of confidence in Who and what you are. Don’t put yourself in that position. If it is something you have done then figure out what that is.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Fedora wrote: This is my favorite quote of the year so far! Seriously, this is one of the first discussions I have with magicians I coach or consult as many do not truthfully realize how the general public perceive magicians or what perceptoion they have toward magicians. I have been on about eight boards, committees, ad panels (Principals associations, PTA/PTOs, etc.)in the K-12 education market (schools) and as I have discussed here several years back, the have developed quite an aversion to magicians, mainly due to how magicians position and market themselves to schools. Several districts have actually banned magicians from school assemblies and will only even consider a magician only for year-end or reward type events. So much of this is the magicians' fault. Puffery and outright lying and unjustifiable claims is just the beginning. The other thread about a member's website here screams of this, yet after watching a couple of weeks to see if anyone called him out or even mentioned it....there was nothing. This is acceptable within the magic community. This is where the current state and problem begins. Don't even get me started on "mentalists." ( I have seem this backfire terribly too on many occasions) There is so much that can be said here, so this should be an interesting topic (or will be met with resistance from those of course within the community that fail to understand it.) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The problem is right in your analogy. You’re talking with the girl and YOU LIE.
Ummm ok why? Why the lies? This is What most magicians do exactly that and we have seen people right here bloviating about how to do it and others encouraging them to do so. Problem is when you get caught. Solution? Don’t lie! How about that? Simple and direct solution if I ever heard one. Don’t pretend you are things you aren’t. This will never happen I guarantee it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: If you lie enough, she might believe it's the truth. But you have to be consistent, and avoid the truth entirely. Mindpro wrote: "Puffery and outright lying and unjustifiable claims is just the beginning. the other thread about a member's website here screams of this, yet after watching a couple of weeks to see if anyone called him out or even mentioned it...there was nothing.". It can be awkward to inform someone that their claims of "world class entertainment" etc. comes off as ballyhoo. telling them the website loads fast is both honest and dodgy, a good combo. To get serious here, I don't promote dishonesty, (at least in business) but being aware of folks preconceived notions about things, and using terminology to control their view of you and your services is a worthwhile effert. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Apparently no it isn’t. You made the mistake and want to double down on it.
Stop telling the lies it is that simple. People’s preconceived notions are easy to get past. The truth works great. Problem is you have to be what you claim eventually. Give it a try.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
If you want to know how the PUBLIC sees it, here is an honest answer.
When I hear "live entertainer" and nothing more, it sounds like something a stripper would do. But seriously, it tells me nothing. For me that could mean a thousand different things. Now if I hear Magician & Entertainer, then I take it as if you do a little more than just magic tricks. Saying ‘Closeup Magic’ tells me you do things like card tricks at a table. Saying, ‘Mindreader’ tells me you do tricks where you tell me what I’m thinking. Saying, ‘Kidshow Magician’ tells me you do birthday parties and magic tricks for children. Saying ‘Family Show’ tells me there are both adults and kids in the audience. Saying ‘For Adults Only’ tells me you may take off your clothes. I love hearing how some try to dance around what they do. I guess they don’t understand that the public sees Copperfield as a ‘Magician’ A magician that is miles ahead of others, but still a magician. Only a magician would use another name for magic. In the eye of the public, it is all magic, different levels for some but it's all just a magic trick. If I wanted to separate myself from the kidshow magicians (and that is the real fear for many) then it's not that hard for your advertising material to do that. Example: A photo of you showing an adult something. Or a recommendation from a corporation. The public is not crazy, they don’t think all magicians pull rabbits from a hat. And if they do ask if you do birthday parties, its easy to say no, and if the asking offends you, well just get over it, because that just makes you an ’upset magician’ Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Sure, but this can be done without puffery or lying. To take it a step farther, do they really think others don't see through this immediately which works against the magician? This is a terrible as a first impression. It hit me within the first 7 seconds and prevented me from reading on any further. I immediately believed this guy is FOS. This first tells me the performer doesn't understand his audience, their needs, perceptions, or intelligence.
I only went back to read further after the discussion of the thread continued and found even more puffery nonsense that worked even more against the performer. I then also question the performers' true understanding of much of this as well. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: This is turning into a very interesting discussion, luckily, I sprung for the BMW with self driving, so I can write this while behind the wheel. To expand on why I refer to myself as a "live entertainer", the reason is similar to what tom wrote, it could mean any number of things. Although I referred to it as "the dreaded question" I actually do this specifically so they'll ask "what do you perform?". In person this is great, I just tricked a person into engaging in conversation. In print, as the exchange in the original message was, it's less useful, they can stop responding immediately at any point they hear something they don't like. Using a less familiar term for what I do could allow me to explain in more words, or even get a coveted face to face meeting. Or maybe not, I haven't tried it. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Fedora wrote: This is what bad lying looks like by the way, BMW doesn't have self driving. On the subject of that gentlemen's website, I don't believe the problem has to do with his website designer, he needs to consult with a person familiar with the folks he's trying to reach. It would seem that his ad copy is made up of the best sounding parts of other folks websites. |
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Stunninger Inner circle 2819 Posts |
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On Mar 6, 2023, Mindpro wrote: I used to work for a medical technology company. One year we were exhibiting at an international physician symposium, and I read through the exhibitor agreement. In the section specifying what type of entertainers were allowed in exhibitor booths, it explicitly stated NO MAGICIANS. . |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2023, Fedora wrote: Actually it is what bad attempts at humor look like. You have been trying it lately in your posts and it doesn’t work. You still haven’t answered why the need to lie exists? I have said it for years that “fake it till you make it” nonsense is stupid. The puffery that is so prevalent here and encourage is just a different way to say you’re telling lies. It is a bad way to start client relations. How do you remember every individual lie for every client? It is just not a great way to do things. Especially since it is over once you get caught. Be who you are and earn the credit. It really is easy and contrary to every pontification you read there are no short cuts. There are no easy answers. It is hard consistent work. Period.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Stunninger wrote: Yes, that seems to be becoming more common in different association or trade events. I've heard the same for the insurance industry, financial, and like you said medical and pharmaceutical. (I also think that is why some are also trying to use other non-magic titles and descriptions, but the floor manager is on to this as well.) |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: This is exactly why I cover in detail with every student or client I coach or consult, we absolutely, 100%, must deal in complete honesty before I will even begin to work with you. Leave your self-perceptions, preconceived beliefs and ego at the door or we can not even begin to work together. As simple as this is, it is amazingly hard for magicians, more than any other type of entertainer I work with, to do this. It amazes me every time. And I think one of the main reasons is because in the magic community it is so acceptable to be dishonest, to use puffy or "deception." |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: Danny, there seems to be a couple of misunderstandings, I'll address the important one first. I strongly suggest honesty in all business dealings, ad copy, and communication with clints/ potential clients. I was honest with the person I talked about in my original post, as I am generally with my communications, including on the Café and elsewhere. What I suggested in the post, and the subject of the thread, is whether using a different name for your service could avoid existing stigma. (if there is any) For an example other than mentalists, so called "keynote speakers", I know several that perform essentially the same presentation as their regular show. But they choose to brand themselves as public speakers instead, to me this is "weird", but they've told me it works for them, and they're able to get higher fees because of it. Any confusion on this matter likely came from my separate analogy, whether or not dishonesty is effective in interpersonal relations is an open question, it likely depends on the goal in the lying. This is separate from the business examples I gave elsewhere. Although I don't lie in these circumstances either, (I save my lying for the stage) it may be effective if I did. which leads to the second misunderstanding, that bit about the self driving wasn't meant to be a joke, (or at least not a good one) I was hoping someone would correct me so I could illustrate the dangers of bad lying. Unfortunately no takers so I corrected myself. The only "attempt" at humor that I recall was in the original post, which was the analogy and the text following, I thought it was pretty good, but to each their own. To the final question of "why the lie needs to exist?" it doesn't. Hope that clears up any misunderstandings. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
I just reread the thread, I seem to have used questionable quality humor in every
post I made, sorry about that. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
What do you mean you “strongly suggest honesty”? Either you are honest or you are not. There is no gray area at all. When you try to hide what and who you are for whatever reason it is dishonest. And as an aside, why would you want to deal with those people anyhow? It is going to be an uphill battle even IF you get in. Save your energy for those who want and or deserve it.
I had a dog that was half Siberian Husky and half Wolf. He was a great dog and when we went to the dog park (An activity I do not recommend.) every dog wanted too play with him. BUT there was ONE dog who didn’t want to play with him. Problem was HE wanted to play with THAT dog! I can’t explain why but it was true. Moral of the story is try to be smarter than the dog. If people are not interested, for whatever reason, move on. Put your energy into places where it will show returns instead of trying to spend that same time frustrating yourself not being able to convert people. Why do it to yourself is the question? You’re the one who gave the example of lying to a woman. You’re the one who asked what lies are being told now. All we can go by is what you write. ANY form of dishonesty with a client is eventual death of that relationship. It is bad selling, it is bad customer service and it can not be recovered from when it is ALWAYS discovered. I do relationship selling so there is no way dishonesty in any form works. Puffery is the WOST. I know certain people here condone and even recommend it I am telling you when it is discovered it really makes the performer look like a moron and a wannabe. Nothing looks worse. Then the performer complains and blames it on something else. Everyone is at the level they are at and no matter how you try to use weasel words to twist things it simply does NOT WORK. So be 100% honest. It is strange that you believe that lying being good is an “open question” is odd. It absolutely is NOT an open question of any sort. And yea you have been using bad humor a LOT lately. You did the same thing with the post about servers pay on Indeed. It does not seem to be your strong suit. Neither does manipulating people into saying what you want. If these are things you do in email maybe that is where the stigma comes from. Again I have NEVER once had that sort of thing happen. But if it is happening it might be more on you or something that you are doing. Maybe you are coming off in a way to them that makes them associate you with that stigma. Nobody wants to look inward because it is uncomfortable to think we could be wrong and have to change. But in general inward is the direction to look for these things. Puffery, false positioning and pretending you are things you are not often lead to this association of that stigma. I am not saying you do those things. I am saying there is cause and effect. By the way a “keynote speaker” is a different job entirely. Yes you can do your act for it but they are making more money because it is a different budget and such. The analogy simply is wrong. Don’t use weasel words to try to change what you present yourself as. Eventually they have to see what you really are. They will be disappointed if you set them up to see one thing and they end up getting another. This is no way to build long term relationships at all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 6, 2023, Fedora wrote: First, yes there are both magicians and mentalists that claim to be "speakers" or "keynote speakers" or "motivational speakers" and they are not, and as you said just try/claim to perform their typical show and maybe add a basic motivational prop, sentence or theme. These guys don't last long as they will soon be found out. Speaking is a completely different discipline than performing and the business behind it is different as well. Again, the speaking industry is onto and well aware of these magician tactics. Secondly, magicians make the transition to "speaking" and claim they are making more money as a "speaker" than as a "magician" it is only because they are targeting a completely different market that has a different and often higher pay range. They aren't getting greater fees in the same market they have as magicians. No kids party or restaurant pays for higher priced speakers. To get such higher fees they would need to target a completely different market and marketing approach. Again, more magicians BS. Same for magicians claiming to be mentalists. When I looked at the magician's website from the other thread the immediate other first thought I had was "this guy is no more a mentalist than my mother!" |
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Al Kazam the Magic Man Inner circle Living in Perth Western Australia 1042 Posts |
Great conversation here folks. Really enjoying it.
Magic guy in Perth Australia
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2023, Al Kazam the Magic Man wrote: As am I, conversations like this are good for the industry in my opinion. Danny, let me correct something you wrote, "it is strange that you believe that lying being good is an "Open question" is odd". I actually wrote: whether or not dishonesty is effective in interpersonal relations is an open question, it likely depends on the goal in the lying". Note, the word "good" doesn't appear, as lying is not. The word "effective" does appear, but not in the context of business relations. To elaborate on "depends on the goal in the lying", you're correct that dishonesty is a relationship killer, but if the goal in the "interpersonal relations" is something less than a lasting relationship, it could be "effective". I want to give an example, but there's no way I could resist bad humor. Which leads to the second correction, "and yea you have been using bad humor a lot lately... It does not seem to be your strong suit". This is completely inaccurate, I'm highly adept at bad humor. To list some things I agree with , Puffery is terrible, and if anyone is reading this and thinking about using it in ad copy, or you already are, reconsider. Keynote speaker is a different job, and throwing some tony robbins quites into a rope trick and calling it motivational is "weird". About the dog park analogy, that really comes down to what this thread was started for, Is the amount of scary dogs (folks who have negative opinions of magicians) out there negatively affecting you? And is there a way to have the dogs not be combative to you? Lastly, my suggestion of Illusionist is hardly dishonest, I don't want to sound like "that guy" but Webster defines illusionist as follows: "a person who performs illusory effects, such as a slight of hand performer or magician". This isn't the magician definition, but it is the general usage. |
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