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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Good question, personally, I'm not, I have quite a positive opinion actually,
I've met some folks I don't have a positive opinion of, but they probably exist in every industry. This doesn't mean other folks see magic the way I do, in my mind, being aware and prepared for people with negative perceptions is necessary. I would also like to hear other members view on the matter. "Another question, if you are positioning yourself as a live entertainer, what does that really mean? What does that include? How is it different from a magician? Why have any magic at all?" It means that their guests will leave feeling appreciated, and that they saw something that left them with a memory other than the gridlock to leave the parking lot. It includes multiple opportunities for their guests to be a part of the event, and not just a spectator. and for the client to be the center of the attention. I may even show them a card trick, unlike with some magicians, they have a choice. Magic is the means to make the entertainment happen. Note, not actual ad copy, particularly the "unlike some magicians" bit. Danny, once again I've ran out of time, so I'll address your posts in the morning. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Hey Danny, to speak to some of your concerns:
You mentioned a couple of posts back the "BMW analogy", I believe this is how I lost track of what you were referring to. The bit about the BMW wasn't an analogy, it was a bad lie, when you wrote about analogies I thought you were referring to the original post, sorry for any confusion. You're correct about the google thing, actually, google doesn't rank the search term at all as far as I can tell, meaning for SEO purposes it's better to use other terminology. As for my approach being ineffective, I've found it to be considerably more effective in person, this is why the goal of the exchange, and most exchanges, is a face to face appointment. Thanks for the contributions in the thread Danny, if you have any other concerns feel free to bring them up. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
In reality I’m not really thinking this will help you. You are going to have to be dragged from this paradigm with your teeth marks in it. I’m more pointing out for other readers who have less emotional investment in being right so they can see the obvious pitfalls of this approach and why manipulation and dishonesty, even in sheep’s clothing, is not as productive as it seems.
For whatever reason you are just so invested in believing this is the best thing. You just can’t see how it is perceived on the other end. As Mindoro says it is just that “me” perspective and is so limiting. The best way to “sell” something it to make others think it is their idea to buy it. The way you try to deal with people will give people the opposite idea and then they resist. You don’t see it as a big deal but it is. You will not change your mind. Hopefully others see the folly of doing things that way.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
This discussion reminds me in many ways of the very popular Coaching thread and what so many can't see or don't understand. Maybe don't want to understand. Also why some insist on the me-based mentality and approach to try to figure everything out on their own vs. those that want to learn it right, properly and factually in a proven and time-tested industry system structure.
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Danny, If how I do things is folly, I hope they see it likewise.
You seem to have the idea I have "emotional investment" with my approach, I do not. I do disagree with one thing you wrote, nothing was "dishonest", I'm not sure why you want to believe a change in terminology is lying, or in "sheeps clothing", it isn't. Hardly different than a store referring to something as "pre-owned" as opposed to "Used", they're avoiding a negative connotation. As for "manipulation" , it's only that if you're doing it for yourself, without regard for the person you're selling, this also isn't occurring. Even if you don't think what you're saying is getting through to me, I can tell you that several folks are following this thread, and your posts may be beneficial to them. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Yes, I have heard from several myself following this thread. That is the beauty of a forum is that others can learn by the discussions too. The other thing I have learned by receiving so many messages and emails is that there are far more people that follow Tricky Business than regularly participate here.
This has been a good and beneficial discussion, I hope it doesn't get derailed or diminished. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, Fedora wrote: Google the Bootstrap Paradox. You are creating your own problem. Simple really. So your point is you want to be perceived as a used car salesman? The very thing Oriole mention when they talk about the worst type of sales for decades and it seems as if you are god using tactics because they do? Seriously the fact that you don’t back up and look at this and say “oops why would I want people thinking of me like that?” is just hard to imagine. It shows your emotional attachment to this foot you keep defending. Here is what you’re missing. You never get a second chance to make your first impression. So the instant to start your little word games it can be trouble. As I’ve said you blow through ten of the first 30 seconds trying to con them into a longer conversation. Why are you not just interesting enough on your own to be able to do this? If you have to con them into longer conversations maybe it is the conversation you’re having that is the real problem and you are choosing to blame it on an imaginary stigma? Certainly it is easier to do that because you have a great excuse for why nothing is working and you don’t have to do anything to make things better. It is probable that you are trying to changes the perception of who you are and not changing anything but the wording. Fact is that once you start trying to move up to different levels and markets things you did before just won’t work. You are stuck with this perception that got you where you are. You think it will get you further but it won’t. I have recommended the business book “What Got You Here, Won’t Get You There” many times to people. It talks about how if you keep doing the things that got you where you are then you won’t get any further than where you are right now. No matter how much more you work at those things the results will not change. If you want to move forward you have to change what you are doing to do so. But when to have a little bit of success it is hard to want to abandon the ways that got you there. We get exotically invested in it and worse yet ego kicks in and we just can’t see the harm it does to the cause. But something had to change or nothing will ever change. By the way here is an example of your word games and how people perceive them. https://youtu.be/-Nc88_ZEfxg If that is how you want to be perceived go ahead. People are just not dumb.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Fedora,
Did you call the lady back? That would be an easy way to find out things. It looks to me like you just assuming why she never called. Also, I canâ??t understand why you canâ??t come out and say something like, Iâ??m a magician, now please allow me a minute to explain why my show is so much different from the average magic showâ?¦.. Hiding the fact you're a magician doesn't help a thing. Nobody hates magicians, (other than maybe some other magicians) sure there are some that can't understand why they should choose magic for their event, but part of the job is explaining why magic could be an excellent choice. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: Yea this.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
First of all, that clip is hilarious.
Although what's happening in that clip isn't what you've been saying my terminology is. To be specific, what the salesman is doing isn't lying, he's doing two similar things, "prevarication" avoiding the truth by saying other true things. (This is what I did about Roberts website) And, more applicably, using "polysemes" words that have multiple meanings to hide the truth in the form of equivocation. My suggestion of the use of "Illusionist" was a polysemy of sorts, in that I can make it mean what I want to. Anyway, enough semantics. Tom, I actually sent her a follow-up this morning, I'll let you know if it goes anywhere. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Right when you have to get into semantics to make your point the point is lost. They are not going to go through all the semantics gymnastics necessary. They will move along to someone who seems more straightforward ego doesn’t make them feel like they are being lied to.
You fail to see this from any perspective than your own. Once the customer feels lied to they are in general done. It is just bad sales.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Also the matter which no one seems to be addressing is the whole cold calling thing. To may people this screams of desperation - especially when done in person! Many people's perspective is "if they're any good they don't need to be going door to door or cold calling.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: You're kidding yourself if you believe this. Many people dislike or hate clowns and magicians. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The cold calling thing really is a desperate look on the surface. Especially when it is the performer themselves doing so. Combined without deceptive language it is a bad combination.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Oh you won't believe this, I just heard back from her, she wants
to meet me on Saturday. Don't ask me what changed in the last 4 days, I was too scared to ask, It might be that I opened my email with a cash offer instead of a percentage, I don't know. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, Fedora wrote: Never Never Never ASSUME a client is not buying until they tell you to get lost. Glad it worked out. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It hasn’t worked out yet.
When you assume why people don’t answer email ask you’re doing is playing av silly game. Kids and parents get sick, people go out of town, other things happen. You went through all these histrionics and it was a 4 day period hadn’t heard? Wow you are new at this aren’t you? If you learned anything I hope patience is One thing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: That is True. Let's just say, to be continued. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 746 Posts |
Based on my timestamps, it was 4 days to the start of the thread, 6 days to now.
Reason for my assumption of blow off, her messages went from responding within 20 minutes, to complete radio silence. Most likely, either something I wrote turned her off, and it was corrected in the follow-up. Or my email was blocked, and she never got it. I like the word "histrionics", that's not used enough. As for the "Hasn't worked out yet", that's the biggie, I haven't actually accomplished anything yet. |
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StephenRoy New user 62 Posts |
Fascinating topic:
Here's a different, yet parallel perspective. I've been a real estate agent and broker for over 15 years. People hate real estate people more than magicians. But why? Truthfully, they all don't, but the "used-car salesman" stigma, as mentioned above, is abundant in the industry. It's the way the industry as a whole continues to propetuate itself, as most RE agents only care about closing a sale and getting a commission. As MindPro points out, it's a very "me-based" version of the industry. That never succeeds as noted by an abysmal drop out rate (50% of first year agents). I used to train agents and know they don't become successful until they get over themselves enough to begin focusing on their client's needs, rather than their own bottom-line. Once that paradigm shift happens, they amazingly find they have happy customers and a business that has value and grows. They then get over the stigma of being a "used-car" REALTOR and begin seeing themselves a professionals who actually help people live better lives. I hate seeing an agent's advertising that talks about how they are #1 in their markets, how they are the best, and other "me-based" ********. Who are they fooling? What are they actually offering? I'm suppose to trust them with the biggest transaction of my life because they are just THAT good? What will they actually be doing for me? You can replace "agent" above with "magician" and it's almost the same story. How many times have magician's tried to gain credibility with advertising they've been on TV or listed every big corporate show on their website? Is that really the best value proposition? Sales isn't about making the money, stroking yourself, or getting what YOU want. It's about identifying a customer's problem (they might not even know they have a problem) AND providing the solution for it, for which you will be happily compensated. To identify what that customer needs, you have to ask a lot of questions, ultimately leading them to decide they need you more than they ever knew... and then you have to deliver beyond their expectations. What do those customer really want? Creepy magician is definitely an objection that needs to be overcome. I enjoy reading MindPro's posts a lot. While I'm not a working pro magician, I've been in the production side of show business for 35 years and I was in real estate for 18. In both professions, as soon as I got over myself and what I wanted and started focusing on what my customers wanted (and providing it for them) did I ever begin to have any measurable success. It's clearly not all about the money. So have I ever avoided "magician"? Yes, just like I avoided "REALTOR", until I began to have a certain level of confidence in my services. Then, I was able to overcome my own stigma and began providing successful solutions for customers. When I have objections because of those titles, I know I haven't asked enough probing questions and gone deep enough to identify the problems I can provide solutions for. |
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