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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All in the cards » » Clocking the deck - Hans-Christian Solka's method vs. Doug Dyment's method (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Pyppo100
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In Doug Dyment's book Tricyclic, a method ( page 35 - Tick Tock Too (Card Clocking for Connoisseurs) ) is explained to speed up Card Clocking, assigning particular values to J, Q, K as an alternative to the more well-known ones which assign J, Q, K values of 1, 2, 3 respectively.

In the book "Gaukelwerk with Playing Cards by Hans-Christian Solka" which I have NOT yet purchased, the technique explained for Card Clocking is faster than the one explained by Doug Dyment's?

Thanks!

Best regards
Nikodemus
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I think it's important to bear in mind that the speed of clocking depends on multiple factors. In particular, how comfortable you are with mental arithmetic, and how often you practice. It's not just about which system you choose.
Having said that, personally I prefer the Solka approach. My main reason for this is that Doug's system (like Harry Lorayne's) has ambiguous results for 6 out of 13 values. (The three court cards each have an equivalent that gives an identical result). This requires extra work to resolve.
Another (minor benefit) of the Solka system is that a single [complete] suit will give a result of zero. This - obviously- is identical to the result for a colour (two suits) or a whole deck (4 suits).
Doug's system gives zero for the whole deck or one colour; but the total for a single suit is 5. It's not a big deal; but one thing less to remember for the Solka system.

A word of warning - Gaukelwerk with Cards is not an easy read! I'm not sure if that's due to the original writing in German, or the translation into English, but I found it a real slog. The underlying ideas are not rocket science though, so don't be put off.
JonHackl
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I agree with Nikodemus' analysis, but would like to clarify the clocking method from Gaukelwerk to which he's referring is the Mingau Location. Dr. Solka prefers his own Solka Location, but also teaches Mingau in Gaukelwerk.

Like Nikodemus, I prefer the Mingau Location out of all the methods I've learned. I think Tick Tock Too is excellent, but one of my goals is to make the second pass as quick as possible. This means eliminating those ambiguous first-pass results involving the court cards. The Mingau Location solves this nicely.

As far as speed for the entire clocking process, I wouldn't be able to say whether Tick Tock Too or Mingau wins. But when it comes to the second pass in particular, Mingau will be faster in the nearly half of first-pass results which yield ambiguous results in Tick Tock Too.
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Pyppo100
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I'm studying the "Tap a Lack by Paul Cummins" effect and so I'm mainly interested in speeding up half-deck counting (I only count black or red cards in a full deck).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNbh4p3uZ84

How much time on average does it take with the Solka or Mingau method to count half a deck?

Thanks!

Best regards
JonHackl
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I haven't used the Solka method. My impression is that, once you get proficient with the system, you'd have probably as a quick a first pass as possible. However, the trade-off is even more ambiguities to deal with in the second pass, which will therefore take longer.

Between Mingau and more traditional, casting-10s methods, again I think your second pass is going to be quicker a lot of the time with Mingau. I don't know whether that will lead to an overall faster clocking or not.

I think timing it and giving you the result is probably not going to be as helpful as you might think. Perhaps I'm not as good at mental arithmetic as you are, and my speed will be worse than you can expect. Or perhaps Nikodemus is very sharp, and his speed will be quicker than you'll get.

Personally, I'm not terribly concerned about the speed of the first pass. I just cover that time with patter, as though I'm considering possibilities for what card is theirs. "Maybe this one... or maybe this?", etc. It's the second pass that I care more about. Spreading through the whole deck a second time is something I'd ideally like to be psychologically invisible.

So either Mingau or casting 13s wins for me on this point, because they eliminate court-card ambiguities and therefore lead to smoother, quicker second passes. Mingau uses more natural arithmetic than casting 13s, in my opinion, so it's my preference.

Tick Tock Too is great but it addresses some different priorities, like avoiding two-digit or negative totals in your first pass. Those don't bother me, but I can see the value for someone whose priorities in clocking are different from mine.
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes

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Wravyn
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JonHack1 started this thread
https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......orum=159

He had sent me some very helpful suggestions. Perhaps message him and he may be of some help also.
I appreciated his insight and help.
Nikodemus
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Quote:
On Sep 26, 2023, JonHackl wrote:
I agree with Nikodemus' analysis, but would like to clarify the clocking method from Gaukelwerk to which he's referring is the Mingau Location. Dr. Solka prefers his own Solka Location, but also teaches Mingau in Gaukelwerk.


I said the document was hard to read - and it is!!! I just went back to check, because I was surprised by Jon's comment. (I haven't looked at the doc for a couple of years).
In section 3, Solka describes learning a clocking system from Mingau. Then in section 3.1 he describes his own amendments to Mingau's system. (There is a table on p4 showing the changed values). This amended version is the one I like. Personally I would argue this is Solka's rather than Mingau's because it really is an innovative step forward.

Later in the document (p19), there is an entirely different Solka GROUP clocking method, which is designed to narrow the choice down to a small group of cards. This is not what I was alluding to.

Cheers
Nick
Pyppo100
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Quote:
On Sep 25, 2023, Nikodemus wrote:
I think it's important to bear in mind that the speed of clocking depends on multiple factors. In particular, how comfortable you are with mental arithmetic, and how often you practice. It's not just about which system you choose.


Beyond speed, you must also consider which method requires mental calculation that reduces the possibility of making errors, even at the price of a lower clocking speed.

What do you think?

Thanks!

Best regards
JonHackl
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Quote:
On Sep 28, 2023, Nikodemus wrote:

I said the document was hard to read - and it is!!! I just went back to check, because I was surprised by Jon's comment. (I haven't looked at the doc for a couple of years).
In section 3, Solka describes learning a clocking system from Mingau. Then in section 3.1 he describes his own amendments to Mingau's system. (There is a table on p4 showing the changed values). This amended version is the one I like. Personally I would argue this is Solka's rather than Mingau's because it really is an innovative step forward.

Later in the document (p19), there is an entirely different Solka GROUP clocking method, which is designed to narrow the choice down to a small group of cards. This is not what I was alluding to.

Cheers
Nick


It's tweaked by Solka, sure, but he still calls it "the Mingau Location." I knew from what you'd said that it's the one you had in mind, and I just wanted to clarify so that anyone looking at the ebook wouldn't get confused.

Not only is the ebook hard to read, but it's also possible any two people could be looking at different versions of Gaukelwerk, depending on when they downloaded!
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes

https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html
Pyppo100
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Quote:
On Sep 29, 2023, JonHackl wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 28, 2023, Nikodemus wrote:

I said the document was hard to read - and it is!!! I just went back to check, because I was surprised by Jon's comment. (I haven't looked at the doc for a couple of years).
In section 3, Solka describes learning a clocking system from Mingau. Then in section 3.1 he describes his own amendments to Mingau's system. (There is a table on p4 showing the changed values). This amended version is the one I like. Personally I would argue this is Solka's rather than Mingau's because it really is an innovative step forward.

Later in the document (p19), there is an entirely different Solka GROUP clocking method, which is designed to narrow the choice down to a small group of cards. This is not what I was alluding to.

Cheers
Nick


It's tweaked by Solka, sure, but he still calls it "the Mingau Location." I knew from what you'd said that it's the one you had in mind, and I just wanted to clarify so that anyone looking at the ebook wouldn't get confused.

Not only is the ebook hard to read, but it's also possible any two people could be looking at different versions of Gaukelwerk, depending on when they downloaded!


If the book is difficult to understand, it will be even more difficult for me, having to translate it from English to Italian.... and with English I help myself with the Google translator.... :-( ....


Thanks!

Best regards
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