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KHER
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Kher Cheng Guan
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The illusion performed by Lance Burton in his TV special :ON THE ROAD". The opening scene where the huge bus crashed thru' the white screen as performed in the desert. I know this illusion is merely for TV camera only. Where can I get a book on this illusion?
Darmoe
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It is a variation (to my understanding) of Franz Harary's "PERSPECTIVE"... last I checked the royalty fee for performing this once is a bit steep. The real catch is, you have to make a new gaff for the bit everytime you do it (the method is the same but to use the method certain things must be "adjusted" with each new location.)

Franz uses this technology to death and guards it like grim death. So, if you have some serious cash or a sponsor willing to foot the bill, go through Mendoza and get with FH.

Best of luck!
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
Kent Messmer
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kicking a dead horse...

Darmoe,
"Royalty fee"??? for what? Yes he created it or whatever but is it a patented item? I don't think that this is like a soundtrack that one sings along with at weddings. Those are copy-righted and protected in that you can perfom them live, just not record and or broadcast.

Is it an ethics thing that one would pay this royalty fee? If so, there is no legal stand.

The only reason I inquire about this is that I keep seeing posts saying "buy the original, or that's a knock off of so and sos'." I know if I invented something I would want everyone to buy mine, but what right would I have to insist on this?

Not all working magicians can afford to buy the $5000.00 version of something they can get for $2000.00. Yeah, it might not work as well or hold up for as long, but why should that stop them from doing the effect? Why should they be ridiculed because they don't have the "name brand" one?
knightmagic98
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Well, the effect is protected by Trade Secret Laws. Check the WAM website for a book on these laws. Also, if you cannot afford the asking price of a particular illusion, maybe just don't do it!
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2002-08-02 20:01, Kent Messmer wrote:
[...]
"Royalty fee"??? for what? Yes he created it or whatever but is it a patented item?
[...]
Not all working magicians can afford to buy the $5000.00 version of something they can get for $2000.00. Yea it might not work as well or hold up for as long but why should that stop them from doing the effect. Why should they be riduculed because they don't have the "name brand" one?


Kent,

Though honesty and integrity will continue to guide the majority of an INFORMED public, it obviously won't guide them all. For YOU, and others who think as you do, there are Trademark and Trade Dress laws, Design Patents (different from "Utility" patents; this is how Jim Steinmeyer protects "Origami"), Trade Secret Laws, Visual Art Copyrights, Writers Guild Registration, and a number of other existing methods of helping honest (and NOT so honest) people do the right thing.

One company I am currently working with is examining the possibility (quite likely, actually) of "licensing" routines, much in the same way software is licensed.

Believe me, the days of fly-by-night illusions builders selling crappy copies of "$5000.00 [illusions] for $2000.00" to cheap or dishonest magicians are dwindling fast. Creative thinkers are tired of being ripped off, and the laws exist (and are further evolving) to protect their legitimate right to exclusive proprietorship of their own creations.

Sadly, theft of intellectual property WILL continue on some level or another. There's a guy who is constantly selling illegal reprints of T.A. Waters' manuscripts on Ebay, for example. After all, Waters is dead, so why shouldn't this crook make a few easy bucks? And he DOES sell them cheap, so let me know if you want his email address, Kent.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Gracy_hm
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Friends of mine have their ideas taken all the time and I have no tolerance for it!

I have literally NO money to buy illusions and I have hardly any to build an illusion, BUT I would never buy a copy of one that wasn't okayed by the creator. I create and design my own illusions to avoid legal problems, or I create illusions that were designed by people I know wouldn't mind because I have asked them.

I understand both the original poster's point and the responses and I must say because he would buy the $2000 dollar version doesn't mean he is cheap --it could mean he has a lack of funds (like me). The difference is I won't buy a $2000 dollar version because it isn't the way I think.

Take care,
Kyle B.
KHER
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Kher Cheng Guan
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Isn't this trick is based on optical illusion? Or the positioning of the camera? Can we get any idea from S.H.Sharpe's book CONJURORS'OPTICAL SECRETS?
Darmoe
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Quote:
On 2002-08-02 20:01, Kent Messmer wrote:
kicking a dead horse...

Darmoe,
"Royalty fee"??? for what? Yes he created it or whatever but is it a patented item? I don't think that this is like a soundtrack that one sings along with at weadings. Those are copy writed and protected in that you can perfom them live just not record and or broadcast.

Is it an ethics thing that one would pay this royalty fee? If so, there is no legal stand.

The only reason I inquire about this is that I keep seeing posts saying "buy the original, or that's a knock off of so and sos'." I know if I invented something I would want everyone to buy mine but what right would I have to insist on this?

Not all working magicians can afford to buy the $5000.00 version of something they can get for $2000.00. Yea it might not work as well or hold up for as long but why should that stop them from doing the effect. Why should they be riduculed because they don't have the "name brand" one?






Smile FIRST OF ALL... Though I do "understand" where you're coming from and have even taken this position in certain debates... IT'S WRONG!

If I only had a nickle for every concept or insight of design and routine handling I've freely shared (only to have some XXXXXX claim it as his/her own... well, let's just say I'd be far more flush. But in that I'm a fool and a trust people... I've ended up on the short end of the stick... even when working with a "reputable" company.)

Ignoring the fact that Franz and I have been good friends for many years (far too many... )Ignoring the "legal" elements which, as you point out, might allow someone to "borrow" the idea without offering mention or gratuity to someone. Ethically, Morally, and Professionally however, said actions are pure theft! Smile

No, I don't like how "extreme" some of the "Protect the creative mind" issues have gone... just as they protect people like me, who are creative, they also curb the ability of the "up and coming" to access certain "profile" leveled technology and, in time, will not only add to the already existing sense of a Caste sub-culture in magic but rob us of certain bits of creativity that will, over time, preserve our craft.

I do agree with the theory of "restricting" technology in some ways. Using that theory as an excuse to shaft the price on things... well, that's another story all together. This issue brings us back to the original questions on PERSPECTIVE.

Yes, some of the thinking behind "Controlled Perspectives of the Audience" have been published in other sources. BUT, there is much more to doing this illusion than the control element. It is a simple, yet "expensive" proposition to do right. It also requires some serious (and detailed) research, depending upon which variation you are using (there are several "Alternatives" that can be used.)

For those that would like to take there chances and try to do this bit WITHOUT PERMISSION my primary word of advice is to get a very good lawyer first and realize up-front, that if and when Franz finds out, his lawyers and his manager's legal team will be more than glad to ruin your fantasy with some very harsh reality. The moral of this story is, "If you steal from one of the "big guys" you best be ready to play hardball."

Pardon my directness, but I don't think anyone here with any sense of moral fiber will consign theft in any form.

Later!
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
Kent Messmer
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Thomas Wayne, THANK YOU for giving me that information. It is what I was asking for.

I do not wish to steal from anyone and agree that they should be paid a fair price.
"Trademark and Trade Dress laws, Design Patents…" are fair and legal documents and may in some respect protect different areas of a design, invention and the like. But are these thing automatically applied to the new creations or is this something that one must apply for? If not automatic is there any real protection? I understand the law and don't think that anyone should break them (I was in law enforcement for 6 years). If one does not have the "papers" so to speak, I don't think that they should balk. You think that people that buy these are cheap but isn't there some responsibility, and expense to the creator to protect their items?

As to your comment "For YOU, and others who think as you do" you don't know anything about me. I try very hard not to be dishonest. In fact, I'm too honest if you ask my wife.


I don't agree, however, that because something is built or sold for less than the original that it is a "crappy" copy. Maybe in that because it is a copy it is crappy?

Where is the line drawn in building and or paying the originator their due? There are many books on building illusions. Does the purchase of the book and or plans give you the right to build and perform, or even sell? How many of you have built a "square circle"? Did you pay the originator a fee? Where does it start and stop?

Of the companies that are building illusions out there that don't have the originators stamp on them, how are they getting around the law. It is not like they are hiding the fact that they are building these items.

Darmoe, THANK YOU also. I am hoping that many are reading this to be informed. I have some ideas that I would like to put out but didn't know how to protect them.

It is unfortunate that some of the illusions are as high-priced as they are and that only people like knightmagic98 can afford to have the original.

I have illusions that were several thousand dollars (original by the way) and when I received them thought to myself wow did I get took, not that the effect was poorly made or was not as they had described, (although that has also happened) but there is only a few hundred dollars of workmanship and materials here. How much is a fair profit?

By the way Fran has some great illusions I would like to have one some day. Cutting a girl in ninths - I think it is called, I saw Fran do and I think that it is one of his. I have a supplier that sells this illusion but I don't know if it is an authorized one. I guess I could ask. With what you say about FH I most likely will.

Thanks again.
knightmagic98
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Quote:
It is unfortunate that some of the illusions are as high-priced as they are and that only people like knightmagic98 can afford to have the original.


Kent,

what makes you think I can afford these illusions? I can't. Therefore, I do not perform them. I don't see how that is a difficult concept to grasp. Not everyone in magic should be doing these illusions. I see no problem with the creator charging as much as they want to for their creation. Maybe that means I cannot afford to do whatever GREAT trick they have created. So be it. There are plenty of other effects out there that I can perform. Maybe, I'll get some shows doing the effects that I can, and SAVE some of the money I receive to buy other effects down the line.

Also, in regards to Trade Secret Laws, they do NOT have to be applied for.

Sorry for my rant...
Darmoe
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Kent

Firstly, my accusations towards you stem from the tone of your orignal post... sounded like you were searching for a way to be "allowed" to "borrow" and use technology...

Secondly... the "Janet Box" (cutting in 9ths * named after Janet Jackson for whom it was originally created) is a highly restricted piece with a base price of around $25,000.00 (last I checked). Franz only allows so many to go out in each region... lots of strings!

I think we both share the same concern over "Where does the line in the sand go away?"

I know that most of the guys like Stinemeyer and Woodbury have no problem with people building the effects outlined in thier books FOR PERSONAL USE. That don't mean you can build one, use it for a season, sell it at the end of the season and build a new one the next, etc. That's one loop hole I know to have been used in recent years.

Jim & Rand are exceptionally fair when it comes to "the issue" as it were. I know of one young man using an Origami knock-off... he was "new" to the industry and struggling... bought the thing used. When he found out about the legal war over the thing he called Jim and things were worked out in a very amicable manner.

In "defense" of Knightmagic98... I'm uncertain just what kind of show he does or the kind of props used, but I know that most of the "working" pros (not to be confused with the big $$$ "stars") rarely purchase more than one, maybe two new effects every two years... maybe once a year, if they're doing good. The exception to this rule is when a Corporate Client wants something special and foots the bill (I love those kind of clients!)

Magic has gotten bloody expensive and the bottom line is GREED!

"But you're paying for the secret!"

BULL!

I know how the freak'n sawing works... who don't?

A fair quality sawing now days starts at around $5,000.00... the so-called cutting edge pieces, that cost about the same to build (around $1,500.00) are going for over $25k... that's simply not right! But then, there are book tests out there that go for several thousand dollars as well (and you guys thoght Mother & Insight were expensive Smile )

Kirkham told me long ago (as did Roy Houston) that Woolsworth (a.k.a. Wal*Mart, K-Mart, etc.) are the best magic shops around... If we "know our craft" it is nearly impossible not to walk through such a store and not see tons of amazing potential.

I think the bottom line is, we need to strive to create "our own" and allow that to establish our identity... not sharing it, not chasing the elusive buck by cheapening our creation too soon and going to the extremes of commercialism, etc. Allow that self-created novelty to become legendary.

The "old timers" did this as a matter of habit, not sharing their ideas and workings until late in their career. Allowing their early year discoveries to carry them forward; many of them having moves and ideas that were legendary e.g. Shamada's Dove on Cane; McComb's 5-Cornered Hank, etc. Even something as commercial as the Flash Vanish Bird Cage or Spirit Paintings... the old timers had little "subtle touches" that made them even more astonishing, that was never shared into late in life... they made the effect and vice versa (can you visualize the Bird Cage without thinking BLACKSTONE?)

The commercial side of our craft has become overly saturated, abused, and far too accessible. When we all stop chasing the buck and start remembering our "art" and the obligations that entails, then perhaps the magick will return to our tricks Smile

Later!
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
Kent Messmer
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I in no way want to skirt the law or the right of others to make a profit. I own a magic store and have many companies send me their prices on illusions, tricks and such.

There are so many variations on standards i.e. dove pans, cups & balls etc. but there are several large illusions made by various builders that I questioned. Their prices were much lower than the "name brand" ones
and I wanted to know more about the "laws" that is why I have been prodding this subject.

There are several "commercial" companies selling what I would assume are knock off illusions. They are not doing this in back allies but in magic trade magazines and on the 'net. Why are they allowed to do this? (or are they) Can builders, other than the original, legally build and sell these.

What about items on magicauction.com in the builders unknown section? Is it illegal to purchase or perform these?

knightmagic98, sorry about the accusation. It is just too bad that some illusions are so expensive to the extent that some can not do them. There are many performers out there that are great entertainers that should be able to do some of these but can't because of the cost.

Oh well.
knightmagic98
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Quote:

knightmagic98, sorry about the accusation. It is just too bad that some illusions are so expensive to the extent that some can not do them. There are many performers out there that are great entertainers that should be able to do some of these but can't because of the cost.



Why?

Why is it "just too bad that some illusions are so expensive to the extent that some can not do them?"

I think that is a GREAT thing. It helps to limit the performers out there that are doing it. There are too many REALLY CRAPPY magicians out there. Some people just should NOT be doing certain effects. Some people do not have the talent, some people it just would not fit their style.

"There are many performers out there that are great entertainers that should be able to do some of these but can't because of the cost. "

If they are that GREAT, they do not need an expensive prop. Magic should not be about the prop, it should be about the effect and the performer. Truly "great" entertainers understand that.
Darmoe
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knightmagic98 I think you hit the nail on the head here... "Entertainers" or, to be more accurate "True Show People".

I've done more than my fair share of rants on the issue of the "poor little rich kid" whose mommy & daddy fork out six digits for a John Gaughan magic kit and buy their stardom. The majority of these kids have no idea what it means to "earn your chops" let alone, how to be an ENTERTAINER vs. a guy that has lots of fancy boxes and scantly dressed assistants.

Admittedly I'm one of the "spoiled brats" of the business. Not that I had money behind me, but because I was given trusted access to so much and still do have a novel sense of access to otherwise "coveted" secrets, etc. HOWEVER, I've also learned that I don't "need" those high end props and fancy fixings. I've learned that, as a showman, I can 30-45 minutes with nothing more than my wits and what I can carry in my pant pockets (and absolutely no card tricks in the mix!)

In regards to the low end "knock-offs"... Companies like Chu's offer o.k. quality copies of "stock" effects like the Broom Suspension, Sawing and possibly the least deception Zig Zag ever concieved. But they allow the serious student of magic a place to "start", should this be the direction they wish to go. (BTW... Chu's also has one of the sweetest, best priced Sword Baskets I've ever seen... good quality, though you might want to replace the swords, and about $5,000.00 less than the one's sold by the big guys.)

Years ago the owners of Magic & Novelty shops made up their own "low end" props such as the Professor's Nightmare, Zombie, even devices like load clips, nail writers, etc. It was considered the "Popcorn Product line" that made the store it's money. Today, this has become a bit more "governed" but, it is how things were (and are, in some cases.)

The "Greed" found in the hands of certain egotist (a.k.a. designers)... especially those yet known at any level outside their own mind, is one side of this issue that is creating "problems" for the retailer. Especially when all the legal mumbo jumbo comes into play.

Let me give you an example... a youngman I'm aware of... an aspiring genius in fact, recently released one of his first commercial effects at a rather steep price. There have been complaints by purchasers of this effect (which is quite cool, by the way) of being "ripped off" and at the same time, people that felt more should be charged. The catch is, more "complaints" on the price vs. what you get came in over positive accolades. The end result is frustration for the retailer(s) promoting the bit, lost sales, and potentially, a lost carrier.

What "new" people wanting to prostitute thier thinking need to do, is think about the advantages of quantity sales vs. getting a fast buck here and now. My Psychic Technology books are a prime example of this thinking in action....

Sure, I could sell them for somewhere between $45.00 and as much as $75.00 each (according to most pros that have reviewed them!) But, why?

Sure, I could use the cash these days but, what will be more to my advantage in the long run, the cash in pocket right now or having as much of my material as possible "out there" being used and people talking about it?

Which is going to help me sell more books, get booked for more lectures, etc. and thus, pay me more in the long run?

Am I offering something exceptional?

Some think so but, in my humbled opinion I'm merely expanding upon and getting a bit more specific about things mentioned by mentalists since the 1890s. The objective of the "program" as it were, is to help folks think a bit and "see" how to get ahead through their craft. Learning a new trick is cool, but it don't pay the rent! We have to know how to use that knowledge, applying the least amount of effort for the greatest end result. Which brings us back to the issue of "Being a showman" vs. a "Furniture Mover" (as Gary Darwin would call it).

I know I've not lent a lot of direct focus on the question but, I hope I've shined some light on how things can/do/used to work in and around this business and why, some sense of "reform" might be needed in our individual thinking.
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
Kent Messmer
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This is description on magicauction.com

KNOCK OFF AND IMITATION ILLUSIONS
After compiling information from many sources we have put together an outline dealing with the questions concerning knock off illusion building. Below are a collection of thoughts from many professionals on the subject. Your own opinion is welcome.



The Imitator

In most cases an imitation is only a shell of the original, produced to look the same, but fails to include the creator's original concept and design ideas. The original design was conceived after months or even years of development. An imitation does not include all of the real construction techniques that are necessary when building an illusion for professional use.

The Professional Builder

When an illusion is purchased from an authorized builder, the knowledge that this builder has been chosen by the creator is a comforting thought. The builders work meets or exceeds the standards necessary to complete the illusion according to the original design. The materials used and the construction techniques will insure that the illusion will perform as designed
and stand up under heavy use for touring professional magicians.

The Designer

The illusion creator receives a fee for the illusion that helps support his continuing efforts to create new and innovative concepts for illusion design. Without this contribution, future growth in the area of illusion design for our industry begins to decline.

Used Illusions

In an effort to prevent the widespread selling of knock off illusions, the purchase of a professionally built "used illusion" will fill the need of the performer while cutting down on the sale of imitations. Professionally built used illusions are the most cost effective way of obtaining an illusion needed for a particular project if the budget does not permit the purchase of a new one. Not only do you get the most for your money but you also preserve our craft.

Afterthoughts

Many magicians will never purchase a professionally built illusion. These magicians perform part time and never do
more than local shows. A major illusion is not practical in this situation. But the need for a show stopping attraction is always there. Having one built for them is usually the way they handle the problem. The illusion is built from from an illusion book or a purchased set of plans. The magician builds the illusion himself or takes it to a woodworker or metal worker and has it built. In many cases these illusions are satisfactory for his needs. After performing in local shows again & again he sells it to someone else in the same situation and looks to find a replacement. This is an acceptable situation. His only resposibility is to inform the buyer the illusion was built for him and the plans it is based on.


--------

If an illusion is sold second hand (original mfg) does the originator need to be contacted?

Is there another fee to be paid to the originator to subsiquent puchasers?

If someone builds a "knock off" can (or should) they pay a fee to the originator?

Thank
Darmoe
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I understand this "dichotomy" and here's what I know has happened...

In most instances if a performer has built or had local crafts people build for him/her a prop based on book plans, that's o.k. and nothing is expected other than mention within programs e.g. credit where credit is due. Some even have gone as far as sending a letter of thanks to guys like Jim, Gene Poinc and Rand Woodbury for being so free with their thinking.

In the case of the knock-off props like the controversial Ninja Box. In know that in some instances where the performer/purchaser contacts JS an amicable "arrangement" is made and things are made kosher... same rule hold true when said item is resold.

In some instances a royalty or performance rights fee must be paid by the purchaser of a given effect. There are many the fall into this category, but I have heard of a few in which this is expected by a designer... personally, I think that's carrying thing too far but on the other hand, I can see how I too could benefit by holding to such a policy Smile Personally, I believe if you fork out the bucks to buy something, even second handed, IT'S YOURS! You're not renting it and the way some folks want to ding you to death on extra fees and litigation elements... well, it's becoming a detour from wanting to own a major (or even some minor) systems.

FYI... I and two noted builders of recent merit have been discussing over the past few months, the development of quality, inexpensive illusion systems that are not tied up in all the legal mumbo jumbo and are practical for the everyday Joe. I can't tell you when it's going to happen, but we hope to have the first phase of this out by next spring, all going well. The list will center on "stock" pieces like Doll House, Sawings, Cremations, Crystal Boxes, etc. and even one or two "newer" pieces or our version of some of the newer "classics".

Oh! Yes, we are/have protected this concept (in the process)and will take legal action towards anyone that replicates what we're doing Smile

Later!
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2002-08-03 16:07, Kent Messmer wrote:
[...]
As to your comment "For YOU, and others who think as you do" you don't know anything about me. [...]

I don't agree, however, that because something is built or sold for less than the original that it is a "crappy" copy. Maybe in that because it is a copy it is crappy?

[...]


Kent,

I don't HAVE to know anything about you. You say it all when you write:

"'Royalty fee'??? for what? "

If you balk at the idea of rewarding an originator for using his original idea (in ANY form whatsoever) then I have learned all I care to about you.

As to the quality of props, I've had the pleasure of spending some time in the shops of various illusion builders (the legitimate ones) and I know quality when I see it. I once got to examine several "Origami" illusions (in various stages of completion) in John Gaughan's shop; later I saw an illegal copy made by some guy named "Jeff Davis". The difference was truly astounding; there's an obvious reason John's work commands the higher prices.

It's been my experience that the market generally sets the price on just about everything. If a creation is overpriced, not many will sell; if underpriced the builder will go out of business - OR IT WLL BE A CHEAPLY MADE PIECE OF CRAP, and the buyer will suffer (along with the originator).

Good luck with your ventures, Kent. If you buy the creations of others, I hope you will be buying the originator's and not some stolen knock-off. If you create items of your own, I hope you won't have to watch the thieves of the world laugh at you while they steal your ideas. And most of all, whichever it is, I hope you'll understand why all of this matters.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Kent Messmer
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Again, Thomas you know nothing about me. Read into what I have written what you want. I'm not stealing from anyone, nor am I advising anyone to do so.

My point of paying fees to builders/creators is that if they don’t want it to be copied then they must go through the legal mumbo jumbo to do so. If they don't want to then they shouldn't cry when someone reproduces it. Some have jumped through all the hoops and have used the law to be compensated for their work when someone stole their work. I don't have a problem at all with that.

Whoop tee do, you were in John Gaughan's shop. Is that suppose to impress me? I never said that any original builder made poor quality equipment. Just because you saw one made by another builder doesn't mean that other builders couldn't build one as good at the creator.

I never said that I would not pay an originator for the use of their idea. In fact I wanted to know that if I had purchased a knock off (I haven't) from an auction or such if I would need to pay a fee for it. Ideas I have read in other post give me the idea that I would most likely contact the originator and discuss it with them.
Kent Messmer
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Hey Thomas, What ever you think of me I am not the only one that would like this information. Would you mind answering the following?

I see that you are a builder and designer. Can you tell me how you would handle fees for knock off illusions of yours? i.e. if one was on magicauction or the like? Would you allow it to be sold and ask the buyer/seller to pay a performance fee? What about one that is your doing being sold second hand, is there a fee to the new owner?

Thank you.
Kent
Darmoe
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>My point of paying fees to builders/creators is that if they don’t want it to be copied then they must go through the legal mumbo jumbo to do so. If they don't want to then they shouldn't cry when someone reproduces it. Some have jumped through all the hoops and have used the law to be compensated for their work when someone stole their work.<

Wow Kent... this mode of thought really disappoints me. You're essentially stating that if something is "Legally" protected you wont steal it but if the gate is left wide open and someone hasn't put out the time, cash, and legal fees to tie everything up "Screw them, I'm going to build it!"

So much for ethics, moral fiber and honor Smile But then, so long as it's legal, it's o.k.... the rich get richers and the poor, more abused and poorer... if a rich man can steal your idea and make it his, YOU'RE THE FOOL for "Trusting" your fellow man (and believing they might have a heart, integrity, honor, loyalty, etc.)

O.k. my rant is over... may we proceed to the tar & feather portion of this thread?
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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