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dr chutney Special user United Kingdom 518 Posts |
Any premature death is a tragedy and a waste but wars happen, natural disasters happen, diseases happen, man made disasters happen. People will die before their time. But where you die, and under what circumstances, will determine whether you are remembered, revered, idolised, or ignored.
I watched the 6 o'clock news on BBC and the top story was an oh so familiar one. In the Sudan a combination of conflict, floods and starvation is creating an unimaginable catastrophe. Over one million people homeless and either on the move or in camps, while thousands are dead and dying. Yet again we hear what's happening late in the day. Aid agencies will no doubt make appeals and individuals will give generously, but Governments? Perhaps a token gesture. Compare that to a disaster such as 9/11. Over three thousand deaths from many nationalities, but predominantly American. Consider the coverage. Now think back to the last earthquake disaster in the Near or Far East. Or the last flood or typhoon disaster in India or Bangladesh. Consider the coverage. Now please don't say I'm devaluing the impact of 9/11, or the grief and suffering it caused. What I am trying to say is that the billions of us who exist, or have existed, on this planet, are/were all created equal, totally unique, and with untold potential. It's just where we're born, and which society we're born into, and the circumstances of our death, will determine how our life will be valued. Of course it's not just the large scale human disasters where this is illustrated. Why should a particular murder, or road death, or fatality receive news coverage, while others, equally tragic, go unmentioned. A few who achieve greatness in their field will long be remembered. A few who achieve celebrity status or noteriety will long be remembered. For a few the media will help us remember if we forget. For most a tombstone or plaque will be a token of rememberance until our immediate kin pass on. And for millions, who never had the opportunity to achieve anything, a dusty unmarked grave and obscurity. As it was and presumably will always be, but I couldn't help tonight but pose the question anyway.
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
I am the last person to ever use a race card or anything close to it...but here I think Doc there is an example of a true racism being exhibited by the entire world and it's political bodies.
Bottom line.. "Oh...it's just THEM killing more of THEM again...they don't know any better." Outragious! The hundreds upon hundreds of thousands that are being slaughtered in Africa over these many years in tribal warfare and racial genocide is appalling. Racism or not though, I guess these deaths do not pose an immediate threat to the many other countries who just watch and click their tongues rather than act. Where are the other African countries in this? The Arab countries...the USA or the UK..or Japan or dare I mention it France? Entire villages and ENTIRE populations are being killed off from horse back and camel back and modern Bombers and fighter planes. In organized attacks against helpless civilians. Hello? Sometimes it makes sense to go in and kick somebodies butt...it's time. The UN is useless but somebody needs to stand in betweeen these killers and their victims. I hear ya Doc. Sometimes it much better to not watch the news... I try and stay away from politics...I'm not very good at it...but this issue really galls me and is upsetting to nth degree. Sorry for the rant. Doug
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ColinB Regular user 129 Posts |
Nothing much one can say to answer this - I guess it all comes down to lack of empathy between our populations and fellow human beings - I guess there is no answer, except maybe to get into politics and try and do something about it.
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
Since I'm normally a happy guy with a silly streak but with decidedly Iconoclastic tendencies, I do believe I'll attempt stay out of much of this 'Not very Magical' category when it turns to politics and leave it to those who are better at it.
Cheers! Doug
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ColinB Regular user 129 Posts |
Despite the "no politics" rule for this forum, I actually enjoy it when it does veer toward more serious subjects, as I find you get a much more intelligent, higher quality of debate (from all sides/political leanings) from our esteemed posters than you get on many other websites' forums...
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Humanity and perspective...a most maddening mystery.
Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
I pointed the Sudan issues over 4 months ago.
The Sudan problem is being caused by arab backed afro-islamics. Where are the Islamic nations to sort this problem out? Arab nations have money and armys but they have NO concept of world issues and never feel a need to give aid. Africa has many surrounding countries but due to 1000's of years of tribal conflicts, border conflicts and genocide (no I am not referencing external influance like Arab or Euro slave and thieft histories), they will not aid each other. Africa is the most mixed-up continent on this planet. The attitude of the inhabitants of said areas towards the value of a human life would be alien to you. You would feel offended if you were placed in the mind of a person in Sudan at the moment. The offence would come from the total desperation of the condition and the resultant human thoughts. Again. The only people who seem to be mobilizing aid is the WEST. England has had national adverts asking for donations. I wonder if al-jazeera [sp, who cares] or any Arab media agencies are asking for help? [If any offence is taken by my post then PM me and we will discuss the offending matter]
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
The Mighty Fool Inner circle I feel like a big-top tent having 2140 Posts |
In regards to Doc Chutney's initial post, comparing the 9/11 acts to the wars in africa is one thing, but comparing them to NATURAL disasters is hardly fair. The deaths from a natural disaster are just as tragic as those from an act of hatred / violence, but the feelings of loss are mixed with feelings of wrath & vengeance, thus producing MUCH stronger reactions. And for the record, all people are NOT created equal. Some are bigger, some are beautiful, some are creative, some are crippled / deformed, some are sickly, etc, etc. The noble ideal in todays western civilization is that even though theyre NOT equal, all people should be TREATED as though they are equal. This is fine in small, individual, controlled doses such as the legal system, or protection from discrimination / segregation. But if you try to accomplish it on a vast nationwide, all-encompasing scale, not only will it never work (You're trying to warp reality!), but it will ultimately result in system collapse and chaos. If you need an example, think of a communist nation.
Finally, to what EXTENT should any Western nation help? Simply drop off food & supplies? They (the supplies) will be promptly siezed by warlords and/or government forces. So should millitary forces be sent in to gaurd the aid effort? Now you're inviting a war & international scorn. When the US used troops to securely deliver food & medecine to millions of starving Somalis, we were criticized by dozens of nations as being a global bully and an occupying force, and people in Somalia CHEERED when some of our soldiers were killed. To all those who criticize the US or UK or whatever Western nation for not simply 'charging to the rescue' whenever some "nation" is experiencing problems, I put the question to them: "HOW??!!"
Everybody wants to beleive.....we just help them along.
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dr chutney Special user United Kingdom 518 Posts |
I delved into this post this morning and was fascinated by the breadth and depth of the responses. It has broadened out somewhat, but the human condition worldwide is a vast topic to begin with.
I would just pick up on one thing from the not-so-foolish Fool: "but comparing them to NATURAL disasters is hardly fair" I think it was fair in the context of the original question. Where hundreds, or thousands die, either by man's own hand or by natural disaster, compare the coverage. We are often led by the media and they are always looking for the next story, rather than reflecting on an old one. But too often huge, tragic events abroad are dismissed too quickly, while equally tragic, but lesser events in the 1st World are dwelt on at length. And sometimes when I see the trivia that often passes as Headline News when a 'Sudan' is unfolding elsewhere, then I do despair. As to The Fool's last question, "HOW?". It's not down to the US or UK to charge in guns blazing, it should be the UN. But look at it. After WWII we had the opportunity to create a body that could, to some extent, police all nations. After all just about every nation is represented. Instead we have a toothless, squabbling, talking shop that has no focus and no power, and is bypassed and driven by a very few predominantly western nations. Look no further than the scandal of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda for an example of UN and world inaction. Immediately after the 9 o'clock news last night there was an appeal for Aid for Sudan. I have no doubt the response will be a generous one from the people of Britain, and presumably from the States and other Western nations. It would be nice to think that Governments would be equally generous in time, money and resources in trying to stop a war as they are in prosecuting a war. Sadly, I can't see it happening. It is only Africa after all.
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Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
What’s an “Afro-Islamic”? Isn’t the Arab militia doing the killing in the Sudan from the continent of Africa? All inhabitants indigenous to Africa are “Afro”, yes?
I suspect that you mean that Islamic-Arab-Africans are killing Islamic-Black-Africans. Or more specifically in the case of the Sudan the Sudanese Arab majority is killing (conducting a campaign of genocide) the Sudanese black minority. I can’t speak to news coverage in other areas other than where I live. News coverage on the crisis in the Sudan is daily (hourly on the radio). Images from the Sudan appear nightly on TV news. Coverage of the recent floods and dramatic loss of life in Haiti were daily. Coverage of the floods in the Indian sub continent is daily. The loss and grief of all those peoples is being displayed nightly on the tube (I’m not home in the day and cannot speak to the daytime news programs). The 24-hour news channels have regular coverage of all those events. What’s to do? Give aid? Give generously to aid organizations? Demand military intervention? Write letters to the editor of the local newspaper? Demand our political leaders make condemning speeches? What? What is clear is that the UN is impotent and will do little more than make speeches (and only if they don’t offend anyone) and attempt to send a little aid (preferring to leave it to private aid organizations) to the suffering masses. I watch, fairly safely from afar, as an entire continent seems to have no enlighten at all. Petty religious differences (my god is better than your god therefore you must die) even pettier tribal differences (my tribe is cooler than yours therefore you must die) and corrupt self-serving politicians seem the norm. Don’t even address the plight of the poor female of the species living there (or should I say existing there). I don’t know if there is a clear answer. I suspect that the answer is more a series of answers and interventions. What seems evident to me is that in the much of the world life seems to have value and there it seems to have no value at all.
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
"...we were criticized by dozens of nations as being a global bully..."
There's the rub...right is right...so what if France criticizes...so what? If it takes a percieved bully then so be it...but I see it more as a cop or guardian in a gang controlled neighborhood. Somebody HAS to be there between them or the innocents are dead meat. No one intervened between the Hutus and the Tutsi and over million were slaughtered. Yes life is less than cheap there but cliche phrases like 'we can't be the policemen of the world' cause me to say..."Why not?" Who else CAN do it? Were not really talking politics as much as savage butchery of our own species...it is the species now at stake...as it spreads and terror groups deseminate the slaughter in wider and wider areas and threaten nuclear detonations...it IS the species at stake...it's time to stop worrying what the 'world thinks' or what some despotic 'world leader' thinks of us because we interupt his flow of funds. I see these guys as enablers anyway...and if 40% of Canadien teenagers think of the USA as 'Evil' (Now there is an enlightened informed group opinion!) so what. The hundreds of thousands being slaughtered don't care a wit about any of it...they just need somebody, anybody to step in and stop the killings. We know who the killers are...we know who the innocent victims are...so what's the question? How? We know how. We know what. We know who. There is no liberal and conservative lines here...there is an entire population being butchered. Butchered, not oppressed, slaughtered like cattle, not being forced to live under a religious fist, but murdered and not being subjected to an unwanted or 'different than ours' philosophy...eliminated. As in wiped out. Period. Genocide. Species extermination. Again...what is the question here?
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Chrystal Inner circle Canada/France 1552 Posts |
You're absolutely correct the life of a citizen living in a third world country should have the same value as that of someone living in an idustrialized nation.
Some countries have taken the role of peacekeepers, granted it may not always have the desired effect in controlling the combat the effort is being taken. An interesting site some of you may want to view regarding the efforts of countries to eleviate the political situation in West Africa is http://www.fco.gov.uk/servet/Front? While it's easy to critisize that more should be done it also goes back to another post that was recently listed - do we travel abroad and view life in other countries? Having observed the poverty in Haiti first hand - I can say that it's not enough to say "My country should do this or that", but to step up to the plate as an individual ...so I pose this question..what have you done personally and not passed the buck and ask them the same thing..after all a country is made of of it's citizens. Each individual should be concerned enough to care what's going on in the world and not be insulated as they may live in a comfortable environment and assume they are untouched. To assume other countries are not doing enough without showing proof is also a form of insulation..I again pose the question..how do we really know what other countries are doing to help the situation? Or are we just relying on the media (which may only give one point of view) what is really going on? |
Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
"I again pose the question..how do we really know what other countries are doing to help the situation? Or are we just relying on the media (which may only give one point of view) what is really going on?"
Good post good question...but you can look at historical records for the answers... Witness the Hutu/Tutsi massacres. Tongues were clicked and a million+ got hacked up with machetes. Also the current death tolls continue, unabated and regardless of beaureaucratic pronouncements of dismay and shock. Untill the Cobra's go in and boots are on the ground BETWEEN killer and victim...we do know this about what is being done...not much. I guess I just have this passion for innocent life... many current and ex-military folks do...cops as well...the cause to protect the innocent is a just one and takes a passion. The 'bad guys' can't win thru default...unfortunately discussions are not going to stop them...not these days. We have an element that wants to die and take as many with them as they can...if anything is scary...that's it. They have no regard for their own miserable lives much less anyone elses and today the means exist to accomplish it. We are talking a primitive midevil mentality with wmd at their disposal. In the Sudan, we are seeing lawless abandon to accomplish an extermination... I repeat...what's to discuss?
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
Afro-islamic. my definition of an African natural (long african gene line) who at some point in his familys history was subverted by islam. I'm sure I don't have to explain that islam is not a true African religion.
I'm going to be controversial now, so sorry if I offend. I have MY family and friends to help long before I even think about other humans. sorry for not being alturistic, No I'm not sorry, that's is how I am. I pay taxes and I vote. My government should act on my behalf as it is doing. I have no complaints. If I was really that moved by the suffering I see, I should get up off my skinny buttski and go to the country in question and help in a physical way. What does the suffering in Sudan mean to me when I hear of pedophiles assulting childeren under our noses. Sort out our problems and when we are ok we can think about helping others. The media is very fickle about what it reports. I can guarantee that the media Co's are sending teams out there right now to stand and film people dying. They are spending much $$££ to get a team out to Sudan. Not to help! Just to film. Like when they film a chick that falls out of a nest. they don't intervine and put the chick back. That would be the team affecting the natural balance of things. (I hate media and the uses its put to btw)
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
Individuals can only do so much...so getting your butt over there to help will just get you killed.
It is the power of a nation that CAN do the job...AND fight pedophiles and other local crimes at the same time. It is the power of two or three nations that can change the planet...and to hell with the self serving ones that complain and whine and accuse while folks are dying needlessly. Sort out the politics AFTER the slaughter is stopped...and take credit or blame as it comes. I put in my time...my Daughter is currently putting in Hers and laying it on the line daily (in the USA by the way...the Coast Guard is in a constant fight to protect lives right here at home and these kids risk there lives every day...you don't have to leave home to serve and be a hero.) Doug
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ColinB Regular user 129 Posts |
For those interested in helping the victims of the Sudan crisis, you can make donations here:
http://www.dec.org.uk/ Other info about the situation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3913031.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3793577.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3911663.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3915105.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3908787.stm |
Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
The only donations that will help today is your spiritual donations. Cash is not the cure-all and will not help people tomorrow morning.
Only your pressure on your leaders to intervine will help. and this will not come by tomorrow morning. I have £50 spare in my hand. I am giving this to my daughter, not to aid Sudan.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
ColinB Regular user 129 Posts |
"The only donations that will help today is your spiritual donations." - not sure how that works.
Governments etc. should and hopefully will do more, but the individual helping with a few pounds/dollars he/she can afford shouldn't hurt him/her, won't actually worsen the crisis, and it certainly won't hurt those dying right now - here's a radical idea - it might even help! "I urge the public to keep donations coming in so that lives can be saved." - Brendan Gormley, chief executive of the Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) |
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