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Bob G Inner circle 2984 Posts 
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While people were helping me think about a noiseless slip cut, I came across the force in my subject line. I found it in Richard Kaufman's beautiful book, Mr. Jennings Takes It Easy, p. 435. Has anyone who owns this book tried Jennings' force? I'd be interested to hear your experience. (The spectator is shown his card face up, so if the magician didn't want to see the card, she'd have to look away.)
Thanks, Bob |
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Ed Oschmann Inner circle Lake Worth FL 1038 Posts
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Oh wow, that's interesting! Seems very bold, but it might be deceptive in practice. Try it out let us know how it works!
My first thought is why bother, when a simple dribble force would do the same thing. But I do like discrepant moves. I might just have to take it for a spin. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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I don't have the book but after reading Bob's description, I come up with this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ptOzF2rj2aI
Is this similar to the Jennings method? |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21569 Posts
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Quote:
On Jul 30, 2024, 1tepa1 wrote: I’m sorry this is painfully obvious.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3159 Posts
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Quote:
On Jul 30, 2024, 1tepa1 wrote: It's discrepant, but throw a delayed edge-tap in there and you might have something. |
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CardGuyMike Special user 859 Posts
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Most discrepant moves can be painfully obvious to magicians, especially after watching a performance multiple times. That doesn't mean it won't work with a lay audience in the moment. John Bannon is the king of discrepant moves, and they work well. As does the Elmsley, Rhythm, Rhumba and Flushtration Counts, Mexican Turnover and a host of other discrepant moves. Right place, right time, proper execution. I would tend to trust Larry Jennings until experience proves me wrong, and then I would have to honestly assess whether the problem is the move or the way I'm executing it in the context of the routine.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21569 Posts
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More horrible moves have been justified with the simple thinking that laymen are just not bright enough to know it.
Just because a person doesn’t know what a double lift is, in no way indicates they won’t see it. They will know “something” happened. Which is just as bad if not worse than knowing exactly what happened. All washed away by the justification of “nobody will notice”. The worst part is that there definitely are times this theory is 100% true! It has just been taken so far and used too many times in situations that it simply isn’t true that it really is losing all meaning. But if you think that move in that video is in any way deceptive then go for it and use it. I’m not familiar with the Jennings offering so I’m not commenting at all on it. That move in that video is not great. All of this begs the question of “why use decrepit moves in the first place?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Ed Oschmann Inner circle Lake Worth FL 1038 Posts
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I think the question is what do you have to contribute Danny, besides criticism? Your post come across as "I'm old", "I've been there" and "I know more than you".
Many discrepant moves can create a compelling illusion. The Asher losing control comes to mind. I pulled the Jennings book from off the shelf and tried out the above. Personally, I don't think it's great, but that's not the point. Trying things out may lead to a great move for the repertoire, or it can be altered into something better. The joy is the discovery. I know I'm going to regret posting this. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2984 Posts
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I don't want to expose too much here, but 1tepa1, your slip cut was fairly similar to Jenson's. PM me if you want more detail. Kaufman writes, at one point in his description of the move, "The next action is going to seem too bold to pass muster, but if you do it without hesitation (and Jennings said, 'Tempo is more important than anything else here') then it will be highly deceptive."
Ed, I've been thinking about your most recent comment. It prompted me to come up with some general thoughts that might help people decide whether and how their thoughts should be posted: 1. Are you staying close to what's relevant to the OP? [I've been the worst possible violator of this. I do think that comments *around* the OP can be useful, but sometimes they stray too far and muddy the waters.] 2. Be kind. Crticism is often useful, but it should be constructive and tactful. Without crossing the line into exposure, give concrete details that might help the person you're addressing. 3. E-communication is treacherous. Ask yourself: If I were face-to-face with the person, how would I address him/her? In other words, treat others with respect. 3. If you find someone's post objectionable, ask yourself whether it's worth pursuing. Many long, bitter, and not very useful exchanges on the cafe occur because no party involved can bear to let go; they have to have the last word. 6. Know how to count. 
I've violated all of 1, 2, 3, 3, 6 myself from time to time. I resolve to do better. Of course, my present post violates #1.
FWIW... |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21569 Posts
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I have not been in front of many audiences that would not notice that Asher control. I do not find it compelling at all, but if it works for you then it is a perfect move.
I have always said I deal in deception. What I don’t deal in is self deception, like most magicians choose to. If you think the video above is deceptively done then fantastic. The question I guess would be why not just use a more traditional technique as opposed to exposing the move for everyone? What advantage is gained by doing so? Or is that me being old?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21569 Posts
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Quote:
On Jul 31, 2024, Bob G wrote: Also understand that tone in text is provided by the READER. Being offended is a choice made based on the tone a reader has input. And make no mistake being offended is a choice. Also remember being offended does not make you correct. And prior to being offended and angry ask yourself why it matters so much what one fool you never will meet says on the internet? Who cares how it is expressed? It is one guy with one opinion. It is meaningless in the grand scheme of life. Also they are allowed an opinion. And disagreeing isn’t disrespectful. It is disagreeing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1975 Posts
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1tepa1’s handling made me think of Jerry Sadowitz’ Slip Jog which is really deceptive. In JS’ handling the card selected is supposed to be a top card whereas it’s switched for the bottom card. It’s an easy sleight that can be used to force or switch a card.
It’s described in a couple of books and in particular in Cards Hits. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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To get back to topic about what moves are deceptive and what arent to spectators, sometimes as a magician its hard to actually know. Unless we literally ask our spectators, we don't always know. And even then not always since some spectators wont answer honestly. One example is the criss cross force which never fooled me, even the first times I have seen it done it has always been obvious to me. Yet when one person did a study using laypeople seeing which force was felt as the most fair, the cut force won over forces that are thought to be much more clean. Like it was literally more fooling to laypeople than an actual free choice of a card from a spread.
To Ed: The question you asked in your post, I have also wondered. Criticism is valuable, but a working pro with a lot of experience has a lot to offer that isn't just criticism. When 99 percent of what someone says is what is wrong or what doesn't work, it has its value but it also makes a person question well, if all these things don't work, I would like to know what DOES work. Because to understand why someone says all these things are wrong, it makes sense to also want to know what things are right to them. Then you can evaluate the things they see as wrong in the context of what they see as right. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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Also Ed, you are right that there is enjoyment in creation, in trying different things. Even if what you make is ****, so what? It could become something else, and even if nothing comes out, you still had fun doing it. I have so many **** tricks that I have forgotten right after making them. Still had fun while doing it.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21569 Posts
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Quote:
On Jul 31, 2024, 1tepa1 wrote: There are LOTS of ways to hear what people think. I used to leave micro cassette recorders behind the bar after I left to hear exactly what people were thinking. It is way easier now to use tech to hear an audience and their thoughts. Since I do these things pretty regularly I’d imagine I have some insight.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Bob G Inner circle 2984 Posts
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Thanks, Claudio, for your mention of JS's Slip Jog. "Easy" and "really deceptive" is a good combination. To my surprise, I found that I own the book. Clearly I'm spending too much on magic.
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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It may or may not be illegal to record people without their knowledge depending on where you live but to me it is certainly against my personal ethics and morals to do so.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21569 Posts
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Sure if you have an ethical objection then don’t do it. Not certain what ethical objection to public conversations being recorded is but ok.
By the way there is no expectation of privacy in public. And you don’t publish them, you listen to them. But sure ethics and morals too because…reasons.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1330 Posts
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When people are in public, lets say eating in a restaurant, they may discuss private matters with each other. They may not expect that no one ever hears a word they say but they certainly do expect that when they are sitting in a table and no one is literally standing next to them eavesdropping on them that their conversation is not being secretly recorded and then listened to.
Lets say I go to a restaurant. I know its not private, but private things can still be talked about. Maybe a family member is in the hospital, someone died, any number of topics that are private can be talked about. They are private things that I would not want someone to hear. I would feel it was a huge violation from the magician if I found out they secretly recorded my table. And I am sure I would not be the only one. As a thought experiement, think of two restaurants next to each other, both offer the same food and are identical. Except on the front door and on each table there is this notice "The restaurant will record all audio that is spoken by the people sitting at the tables and will listen to the conversation afterwards for research purposes". If people don't care, then both restaurants will have the same amount of people in them. However I think we all know that most people would not go into the one that records them. Its even worse when the recording is done secretly because then it is spying. The good thing about spying is that the people that are spied on are not supposed to ever find out so they cant complain. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21569 Posts
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You just make up nonsense. Do you know how many cameras and audio recorders you are on daily? Seriously it is a lot.
Also just an aside but if someone is talking about dead relatives or sick friends right after your set then there are much larger issues with your performance. Don’t do it. If your “morals or ethics” bother you then cool. Don’t justify it with some nonsensical thought experiment. Just don’t do it I don’t care. Do you really believe anyone would listen to personal family matters? The point is for them to talk act what they just saw. In my experience that happens immediately after the performer leaves the area. Apparently when you leave everyone was so enthralled with your performance they discuss dead and sick family members. OK cool. Also don’t change what I said so you can make a C point. I said at the BAR. Not exactly a place for a private conversation now is it? But yea morals and ethics. Go ahead keep going though. I wonder how many more silly thought experiments you can’t back up with data you can come up with.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Larry Jennings Open Slip Cut Force (9 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jul 30, 2024 07:28 pm 
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