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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Want to see Fitch Kohler Holdout in action... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Philipp K
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Bob,
didn't you use the Holdout on the Mystery School video ?
(I'm talking about the 30 minutes video recorded for television)

I think you did a one and a four coin appearance and vanish wich blew me away.

Thank you for that feeling
Philipp
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sleight king
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You are easily blown away from what I can see
Philipp K
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How can you tell ?

Did you see the video ?
If you did, you'd know what I mean.
Those vanishes were simply beautiful.
Doc Brown : If you put your mind to it , you can accomplish anything .
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2005-11-02 04:30, Gluestick wrote:
I know there are folks that want the Ferrari of holdouts or whatever proline of material comes out


That's their free choice and good for them if they want to invest or spend so much money. I know from experience it doesn't make you instantly the best or even good


These days magicians appear to be getting as good at using their 'guile' to market to each other as they are at doing shows for real people


So many can be persuaded that they will be better at something if they clip on a gimmick. The secret 99% of the time has to be that practice and experience needs to come first


Personally I love being able to do my effects without relying on extreme expense, using stuff that can be easily replaced



I saw Me Fitch perform using the holdout at Blackpool a while back. His holdout was doing all the stuff that mine does.& maybe not as well IMO



He was working the horseshoe arena at the time. The working environment was noisy, the crowd big. the conditions poor and people got fed up with what appeared to be an endless impromptu routine of coins appearing and disappearing without any apparent motivation other than a story patterline that could barely be heard above the din



If the holdout is so good why are they advertising it on the internet and engaging in conversation in forums like this, making the whole world aware of such an excellent magicians device. Is this magic or marketing?



Why are you guys complaining about exposure on Wikipedia?



When things get as complex as this


I think I prefer 'free knowledge' to marketing



I know someone who has threatened to write an expose on the holdout on the Wiki for a laugh. I had to get real mad to get them to promise not to



I reckon theres a hornets nest being stirred up here



and again the 'short term' entrepeneur will win and the magician will lose out


So what if they advertise it? Big deal. So what if they lease it at a huge fee? Their lessees seem satisfied. I've seen the actual holdout. Bob Kohler showed it to me at the Collector's weekend. It's a nifty piece of work. If I worked with a holdout, I would probably lease one of them.

The chief advantage that I see with it is that you can change out the parts that need to be changed out for various purposes without having to readjust anything. And there are lots of attachments.

Nobody has ever said, with respect to any piece of apparatus -- "This will instantly make you a good magician." Neither has Bob or Bob.

I have a question, though? If someone wanted to obtain one of yours, where would they go? Who would they ask? "Gluestick" is a name that doesn't really tell us who you are.
"The Swatter"

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Paul Chosse
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Let me see, I have a "Sleight King" whose incredibly original "occupation" is "close up kinda guy" (thank you Paul Harris, 25 years later!), and an apparent "marketing expert", who by his own admission is a "starving college student", and whose also incredible "originality" extends to his attire: Top hat and tails, and a pair of card fans. Both these naysayers are cliche-ridden parodies of magicians who would have you believe that they have more of value to say about an item they haven't ever used than the creators. To top it off, they offer no facts about anything, because they don't have any - they haven't used the holdout! And, they hide behind screen names, providing no identities or credentials. No accountability...

Those other guys, the two Bobs, have decades of experience in performing, magic and otherwise (Mr. Fitch), and mountains of accolades from their peers for many things, magical and otherwise, even excluding the item under discussion. So, as to the credibility issue, well, I don't guess there is one. Who are you going to listen to?

When the "Sleight King" is told that another forum member was blown away by Bob's use of the H/O his response is to denigrate the member! Ad Hominem attack - the last refuge of a man with no argument!

This is simple: Mr. Kohler and Mr. Fitch produced, with Thomas Wayne, a holdout, and offered to lease it to anyone willing to pay the price. They are open about the product, have given guidelines for ownership, and have priced it according to their estimate of its' value. No hidden agendas' I can see. Buy, or don't.

What are the agendas of the "experts", though, who would decide for everyone else what is or isn't fair. They do this at no risk to themselves, and with plenty of obvious animosity. They feel no remorse about the damage they do others reputations or business. And they use the old "throw mud on a guy, then call him dirty" ploy. Again, all at no risk to themselves.

Don't worry, they'll deny all this, they'll nitpick the words, and deny culpability, but you can read between their lines. Remember, they've never worked with the item in question, but they would have you believe that even lacking that knowledge they know that they can duplicate, in fact better, the effects of the K/F holdout with nothing more than "spit and chewing gum". Well, I've been in magic for forty years, and handled every type of holdout you can imagine, magical and gambling. Toe Extensions, Chest Expansions, Kepplingers, Pocketbooks, Lazy Susans, Jack Miller, Knee Spreads, the list goes on and on. And I don't know all I need to know to make an informed decision about this Holdout - how can they?

Their views have no value, their words are harmful, and they don't care. Choose carefully here gentlemen, and ladies, - consider the sources from which you take advice and make decisions. And ask yourself why these "experts" are so mean-spirited, so willing to cause harm to people they don't even know...

Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
Bill Palmer
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It's very easy, Paul. These fellows can make their judgments because they are anonymous posters who have some kind of odd agenda. It's probably to see how much damage they can do to Bob and Bob.

I didn't tip everything I know about the holdout. I tipped what Bob will let me tip. While I haven't worked with the Kiplinger holdout, I have worked with some rather exotic ones. I've made my own. I've done all of the rigging and fooling around that people who are experimenting with these things do. In the final analysis, I'm too busy to waste a lot of time jury rigging some pieces of line, a couple of rings, a wristband and a weight that may or may not work reliably, when for a reasonable price, I can have a professional unit that eliminates all of the fumbling and guesswork.

The pro's here know what they are getting. And they are not disappointed.
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Paul Chosse
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Quote:
On 2005-11-05 23:09, Bill Palmer wrote:
It's very easy, Paul. These fellows can make their judgments because they are anonymous posters who have some kind of odd agenda. It's probably to see how much damage they can do to Bob and Bob...

The pro's here know what they are getting. And they are not disappointed.

The question was, as you know Bill, a rhetorical one. I'm glad to see you reinforcing the facts, though. Hidden agendas, mean-spirited postings, and anonymity abound!

On the other hand though, and far outweighing the gnat-like buzzing of the "psuedo-experts", are the opinions of the owners of the system, who also posted here.

And yes, the pro's do know, and no, they aren't disappointed. The reviews speak for themselves. Whit Haydn posted favorably, and I would trust his judgment absolutely. Other folks in other forums and on other threads have responded in kind. And, under their own names! Amazing huh? There seems to be a stunning lack of anonymity amongst the folks who have the courage of their convictions, and whose views are supported by the facts...

Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
Dan Watkins
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To this day I can still vividly remember when I first met Bob Fitch almost 5 years ago. I thought at the time I was pretty knowledgeable and pretty decent with coin magic. I never heard of a holdout, had no clue what it is.

It was after a lecture Bob Kohler's... Fitch starts messing around with some coins, so I watch. I could follow some of it, catch a flash here or there if I was at the right angle... but then, he could really make the coin vanish...

He did stuff that night that crushed me so bad. I came to grips that night that there was a whole other level of coin magic that you can't get in the books or on DVD... Bob got me so bad that I really was second guessing what I knew about coin magic. What I knew seemed fake. What I saw Bob do was real.

Years later I now know that my story is not alone, I was just one of the many that got destroyed by his holdout work. And he wasn't doing structured routines, he was just jazzing.

One of the unfortunate things that happened when the Bob's released this device is that they made it's existence known. I doubt either Bob can ever walk into a room of magicians again wearing a jackets, without most of them guessing what they are wearing.

I am so glad that I first got to meet Fitch before I knew... It is such a big difference watching him do his work not having a clue what is going on versus simple knowing the device exists (even if you don't know exactly how it works).

It really upsets me to see the lack of respect shown by nameless nobodies hiding behind their computer screens to a man who gave me the present of one of my most memorable and magical encounters in my life.
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Count Zapik
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I too believe our sticky friend overreached themselves.

More abrasive than sticky in fact.

Although I’m not sure there was any malice intended for the Bobs Fitch & Kohler.

Any body in our field knows both to be excellent ambassadors of magical excellence.

Of the two I’ve seen Bob Kohler performing and can confirm his immense ability…I reckon he’s among the top 10 magicians I’ve seen working…. and a really nice & extremely clever guy. I’ve had the chance to talk to him personally and on email on a number of past occasions concerning U3F. He was always very helpful to me.

I’ve heard of Bob Fitch but don’t really know any more than that apart from his association with the H/O, and the very high standing in which he is held.

It’s however maybe probably wrong to conclude that personal malice was intended in the offending message. I can’t see it looking obvious on reading the messages.

That ‘so and so is highly unlikely to rejoin the fray whilst there appears to be a ‘feeding frenzy’ for blood.

It might be better to see if there is a point being made, on the assumption that there are in fact very few bad people in the world. Disagreeing with someone doesn’t make him or her bad. Because they were speaking with too aggressive a voice can be forgiven if they can apologise.

I think it would be good if Monsieur Sticky were to rejoin this conversation to make some apology…. because it is needed! Sticky used too blunt an instrument to get any particular message across. Personally I’d like to know more of what was meant’.

I do think the cause for the outburst is more likely to be disappointment at one of magic’s last really great secrets becoming too well known & entering a very public arena.

I didn’t know about H/O’s myself until the Fitch/Kohler thing first started making ripples a couple of years back.

Since then I’ve used the Internet to find out a lot about it. And to be quite honest I wish it hadn’t been so easy.

The device is deadly, and so clever, even in its simplest forms.

I too, as a magician, would prefer it if there were more material that didn’t get made so public. Magicians just cannot hang onto their knowledge and keep it covert.

Even if it means I don’t get to find out. I’d be that happy to know that magicians were in control of their own material and it wasn’t all in the hands of commerce and ‘retail therapy’. A free market economy is not the greatest or most noble ambassador for our kind of genius, although I can see that for us in the west that might be too hard a concept to grasp.

I wish the undoubted magic acumen of Fitch & Kohler had found a better way of delivering their excellent product to the magical fraternity. As it is, it does appear as if anyone with ‘lots of dosh’ & an average talent can get hold of a device that ought only to be in the hands of proven and gifted practitioners. There are far too many amateur ham fisted fantasists who, every time they do a trick, reveal far more than they conceal.

In truth there are maybe comparatively few people who do good magic well.

Maybe we need a magic underground network. I would love it if there were another closed and secret tier to the Magic Café, which was only for the proven initiated. Even if I wasn’t allowed in! I would just like to feel that magicians at some level were in a safe pair of hands. [I know its all fantasy!].

I reckon Mr Sticky feels peeked or aggrieved that a personal secret weapon has been ‘set up’ to move the same way as the once very clever TT.

And it will do.

We also know that there are many other magicians who also feel this way. This issue isn’t just a flash in the pan because few dare voice an opinion. Because most don’t post doesn’t mean they don’t think.

The Café as it stands is not the easiest or best place to discuss these things. In fact it might be best to avoid personal philosophies and viewpoints completely. [Personally I’m just doing ‘happy magic’ posts from now on].

I wouldn’t mind if Steve Brooks decided to wipe all references to this thread off the records. It’s not a particularly nice one is it? And it gives away too much material for the merely inquisitive to follow up. It’s precisely stuff like this that made me inquisitive enough to find out, and I did it without paying a dealer a dime.

In many ways I do see ‘Stickies’ point…but they were foolish to try and swim against the current tide. And I reckon their avatar might be murdered if it dares to try and come back.

But underlying Stickies mischief there may be an issue here worth wondering about?

…Just in passing.

Momentarily before it’s too late and the tide sweeps over all of us anyway.
I feel as if I have been whisked here from another life....it may even have been my own!
tommy
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Jim Swain shows an hold out in action at his site, if memory serves.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Dan Watkins
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Zapik, the posts questioning what can Bob's holdout do that other Miller style's can't is a valid question. I don't think the comments about being bored watching Bob and than anyone blown away by Bob, gets blown away easily were called for. Even if you were bored, why post such a thing in a public forum? It's just mean spirited.
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Bob Kohler
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It's interesting to check in occasionally to see what's happening at the old Café. Some interesting observations. Here are a couple of thoughts we had while attempting to figure out the best way to share our holdout solutions with the magic community.

First, my main initial motivation was to make sure that the magic world was aware of Bob Fitch. He blew me away with his use of the holdout in the early '80's. Behind the scenes Bob worked with and was a major influence to a lot of working pros including but not limited to David Copperfield, Jeff McBride and many more.

But the community at large was unaware of Bob's talents. After a multitude of major Broadway shows and over 250 nationally televised commercials I can tell you that Bob has an eye for performance that sets him apart from the rest. His observations are priceless. To get him to critique your act would be one of the smartest things you could possibly do.

When we were attempting to release our work on the holdout we had many challenges. How to make it.
How to release it without seriously compromising the secrets etc.

It's been available now for a little over two years. As far as we're concerned the release has been successful. Many thought the license would kill the project. Many thought it was too expensive.

Those who have the system know how complex the project is. It's extremely diffcult to manufacture with literally hundreds of steps. Creating 7 DVD's of training took a ton of time and effort.

I judge our success by customer satisfaction. 100% of the users were blown away by the final product.
Out of all of the units we've shipped only two have changed hands. The circumstances that forced the tranfers were both due to financial hardship/health issues.

Our system is essentially a tool set. How magicians choose to use it and how well each performer handles it is completely out of our hands. I can tell you this. Holdout work give magicians a tool that creates miracles. The Mishell book is title "Holdout Miracles."

I've fooled countless well informed magicians with the holdout during my career. Laymen don't stand a chance. I'll share a story about my first day at the Magic Castle to make the point. I had lunch with the Professor. After lunch he asked me to do a trick for him. I was wearing the system so I did two tricks for him. Vernon ran around (he was in his early '90's at the time and yes, he was running} and he comes back with Albert Goshman and about 20 other guys. So I do a couple more, nobody has a clue what I'm using to fool them.

I'd been using the holdout at trade shows to perform Goshman's classic Salt Shaker routine. I had it down pat. So I ask him if I can do it for him (yes, I'm an idiot) he says OK and we all go down to the close up gallery. We find a couple of laymen for me to do it for and I do the show.

The effect looks much the same as Albert's but the choreography plus using the holdout for complete coin vanishes for each phase has them all stunned. I'm watching their eyes. I know they're fooled. Vernon and everybody rave about the show. Then Vernon looks at Goshman and asks him "what do you think about the kid?" Goshman answers "He's got a ****ty classic palm." (This is a direct quote, don't edit it out!!!) Everybody laughs...the truth is I never classic palmed a coin the during the entire routine!

That night I went to one of Albert's last performances at the Castle before he passed away. After they introduced him he spotted me in the crowd. He did one of the greatest close up shows I've ever seen.
After the show he told me "kid, you can really do the moves but you can't entertain like me!" It was one of the best days of my life.

Having the holdout as a "secret" weapon is most important. These days if Mr. Fitch or me show up wearing any clothes at all, everybody thinks if we fool them we used a holdout. Maybe...

We also get a lot of guys who try to sneak around to find a bad angle. Hey, whatever turns you on.

The main reason I decided not to put a ton of little holdout video demo clips up on the internet is there's just know way you're going to get the feeling that good holdout magic can give you. You'll know in advance of the method and you'll watch it a million times until you think you've figured it out.

Holdout work opens unlimited horizons. On the training DVD's we are teaching the use of the tool. We perform many examples but there's so much more we just didn't have the time to get into.

Another question that seems to pop up is comparisons between the holdouts currently on the market.
To me there's just no comparison. I have all of them, I've used all of them. None of the holdouts out there really are professional in my opinion. They all suffer ione fatal flaw or another.

I constantly have been getting letters about when the next batch will be ready. I should have them back in stock in December. Another question is how much longer will we be making the system. The answer is I really don't know. Our system uses a lot of very expensive, high impact plastics which are an oil based product. The cost are going up, way up. Thomas Wayne is the only craftsman who can make it. His main business is not making magic. If he decides it's too much work for the price that could be the straw that breaks the camels back. My best guess is we'll makes systems only every few years after this batch.
We want to make other attachments we've had on the books for years. This way we'll have the time.

I do have one personal opinion I'd like to share. I really wish everybody on all of the magic forums would change and use their real name. When you read a post from Paul Chosse, Paul Green, Dan Watkins, Bill Palmer and many others you know who they are because they stand behind what they post by using their name.

Personally I just don't read, correspond or answer posts by people with names like "Sleight King" or "Gluestick." If he or she really were a sleight king wouldn't we either know about them or they would want us to know who they are. I feel that using a fake name is like wearing a mask. I guess this is OK if you're really Zorro, going to a Halloween party or are robbing a convenience store...just my two cents. Change your log in to your real name! If all of us that use are real name just plain stop answering any post by those afraid to use their real name, the Café and the Genii Forums would be much more useful to all of us.
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Sean Macfarlane
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I got a chance to witness the miracles that can be done with this hold out just recently here in Hong Kong. All I can say is WOW! I did get a chance to see how it works too, its like something out of a James Bond movie. My post is to the users of this wonderful tool. Its so clean, do you ever get people going for the sleeves? I mean, how else could it be done right?

Even when I work, and I wearing jacket, people will assume I am using my sleeves, even when its so far fetched that I am not. I have been challenged a number of times too to do my magic without a jacket on. These are walkaround conditions where you get all kinds of requests due to the informal nature of the performing situation.

It seems to me this tool would be best when performing parlour, do any of the users use if for walkaround?

And is their a card attachement for this too. I didn't get to see all the attachments either. You can pm me if you feel its that's more appropriate. Thanks.

Best,

Sean


Posted: Aug 28, 2006 7:39am
------------------------------------------
I should also ask, if any Black Widow users have Fitch/Koher holdouts, and how they compare to each other.

Best,

Sean
Micheal Leath
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Quote:
On 2006-08-28 07:36, Sean Macfarlane wrote:
I got a chance to witness the miracles that can be done with this hold out just recently here in Hong Kong. All I can say is WOW! I did get a chance to see how it works too, its like something out of a James Bond movie.


Don't those who lease the hold-out sign an agreement not to reveal the workings of it to anyone?
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Quote:
On 2006-08-28 19:46, Micheal Leath wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-08-28 07:36, Sean Macfarlane wrote:
I got a chance to witness the miracles that can be done with this hold out just recently here in Hong Kong. All I can say is WOW! I did get a chance to see how it works too, its like something out of a James Bond movie.


Don't those who lease the hold-out sign an agreement not to reveal the workings of it to anyone?


Can't speak for others but many who have leased the holdout will tell you something along the lines of "having to kill ya if they showed ya"...
Sean Macfarlane
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I hear ya guys, what can I say. He wasn't that practiced and he overdid it when he showed me. Eventually I caught him. So he revealed it to me. I didn't really see the whole thing, just the attachment he was using and another one that he had on him. I guess I was just lucky to get a birds eye view. He was kind of anxious to show me too.

Anyhow, if you don't want to talk about it, I understand. Its a great tool, no doubt about it. I was just wondering about some issues. But since I don't own one I guess its not my right to know.

Anyone can PM me if they want to share or gripe about how this guys exposed it to me. I don't think he is stupid enough to share it with anyone else though. Then again who knows.

Sean
sullivanl
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Who was this guy that revealed it? He does not sound very professional to me... not even spending the time to master such an exclusive device.
Sean Macfarlane
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He was good actually, but just over did it, the vanishes were soooooo clean, so I did suspect the sleeves. So I was burning him and I caught a glimpse. Once I told him he flashed he caved and showed me.
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Wow, well I guess you were one of a lucky few to witness it in person. I wonder what Mr. Kohler would think about this man who revealed the device? Did it make you want to buy a F/K holdout? Can you share any other insights? Do you think the Black Widow is better?
Sean Macfarlane
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Have no idea about the Black Widow, never seen it. I shouldn't say who this guy is either. All I can say is if I could get one I would! Its really unbelievable. But they are not being made anymore. I don't think?

Sean
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