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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » When to put on your pouch? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jim Wilder
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When do you put on your pouch? I have always done a standard crowd builder effect such as a coin or card routine. When a crowd is in place, I start my 3 to 4 show routines. I always finish with the cups and balls.

Also, I have always waited until I perform the cups and balls to put on my pouch. Until then it is next to my table. I have never performed an entire show while wearing the pouch.

I have started to rethink this. My friend and I were going over scenarios of the why and why I should not put on my pouch just before the cups and balls. He suggested to me, and I agreed, that I should put on the pouch 1 effect before the cups routine. However, I am not feeling comfortable wearing the pouch rather than for the cups routine. I like to move around, and the pouch limits that as I do not want anyone peeking at the goodies. As well, I do not like to have it on my backside until I need it.

How many of you perform or have performed with the pouch on for your entire show and how many of you wait until the cups and balls routine? Or what do you do about your pouch?
JamesinLA
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J,
I'd like to hear what other say about this. My thoughts are, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Do you think your show would be better if you put the pouch on sooner? I guess the idea of putting the pouch on sooner--though you haven't said so--is to provide "misdirection" so to speak as to the purpose of the pouch. So they don't put 2 and 2 together to realize that you need the pouch for the final loads.

Here are some ideas to help address this issues: put your cups in the pouch so you put the pouch on and then pull the cups from the pouch, providing a purpose for the pouch. Then pull your wand from the pouch, another reason for the pouch. Then take out the small balls from the pouch, yet another justification for the pouch.

As far as flashing the loads. A friend of mine uses a Gazzo pouch and he covers his loads with his cups bag (you could easily use a washcloth) and when he's ready to do his finals, he pulls out the bag to wipe his hands. Then he tosses the bag down. But the move is nicely natural and justified; it looks like he's just wiping his hands.

Myself, I use my pouch only during the routine, not before, because I, like you, like to move around a lot during my other routines.

I look forward to other responses.

Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
BroDavid
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I don't wear a pouch yet (well at least not one that isn't part of my body) and really don't do the cups and balls yet (although I am getting close to being ready to take my routine out for walk), but after watching Gazzo on Cups and Balls a number of times, I feel somewhat qualified to comment.

Gazzo puts his on right before does the cups and bals routine, and nobody - (except me, after watching it a few times) realized that what he was putting had anything to do with the routine that was coming.

He puts it on, and go right back to his interacion with the crowd. And then he does his C & B routine. I think this is the equivalent of separating it with another effect. But it will depend on your personality, and how "guilty" you look while putting it on. If it appears suspect that are doing this at this time, then do it at another time.

I certainly agree with James when he says, if it aint broke, don't fix it!

BroDavid
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Mark Rough
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I wear my pouch for my entire show. I do keep things (wand, silks, cards, etc.) in some internal pockets of my pouch so it sort of makes sense. If I'm doing rings, I sometimes where another back pouch that holds them, but generally I keep them in my bag. It really depends on where I am. If the area is iffy at all, I like to keep all of my props on my person at all times. However, my present pouch is kind of light, made of a heavy gauge canvas. I don't know if I'll continue this when I move up to a leather one (very soon I hope). Also, I'm not hauling around 6 oranges and a melon, just 3 baseballs and a tennis ball, so the weight is not that great.

Mark
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TheAmbitiousCard
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My pouch is always on but I use it for other things besides loads. If I feel it's in the way, I just slide it around back or to the side. If I used a gazzo pouch, I'd probably put it on one trick before the c&b.

Frank
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Mario Morris
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Hi jwilder
I put mine on when I am about to do my C&B. Just after I handed the cups out to be examed. I go through comedy history lesson about the cups while I am belting up.
Some times I will hand out the cups early to hold some folk there. I don't make a big thing about that until I am ready to do the C&B and then I belt up. I find this time really slows me down (that is a good thing) and I am able to take real look at my crowd. One thing Gazzo said to me was to slow down.
Pauses and breaks are good things if you have got your audience over. Lots of one liners develop just hear. For me it is important to put it on at this point it builds up the anticapation. I even talk about my pouch and I announce it as a pouches pouch, I have never had some one getting a preview of the load, and if I did I will pocke them in the eye with my wand.
Mario
Hayze
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Does anyone have a video of someone performing C & B with a pouch? The only performances I've ever seen have been pocket loads, ala Dai Vernon's routine on the Revelations series and Michael Ammar's routine that I saw at a lecture. I do not see how you can possibly use a pouch and get away with it, but obviously you can. Would love to see this routine performed without having to buy a $40 tape to do so.

I do own Gazzo on The Cup and Balls notes but haven't had a chance to see the routine performed.
BroDavid
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I have seen the Gazzo video at $25 on ebay, and it certainly shows (and explains) his use of the pouch, and I guess you could always sell it after you watched it.

Not that I am encouraging you to do that, as I think you will want to keep it and keep learning from it, and I never sell a book or viideo if I ma using material from it. And I am sure that others would feel the same way.

But my point is that if you didn't get anything out of it, except some entertainment, you could always get something very close to the buying price - if you buy it right.

BroDavid
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swatchel-omi
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Good question !

I put the pouch on as I talk a little about the history of the routine.
I mention Discovery of Witchcraft and street performers and so on. By the time I'm done, the pouch is on and I'm ready to go. I do keep the cups, the wand, the small balls in the pouch, (which is a Gazzo pouch) so it looks like it's just a carrying bag for the props.

Before I had the Gazzo pouch, I used a 5 pocket canvas pouch. I used Charlie Miller Cups and kept them in the front center pocket. The small balls were in the front right pocket, the loads, (limes) were in the front left pocket. The 2 rear pockets had a ring and rope, a card stab set-up, endless chain, a pair of jumbo dice, a couple of sharpies and some other odds and ends. I wore this throughout the whole show, but it was lighter and smaller than the Gazzo pouch, the animal cups, plus the loads that I use now. With the bigger props, I feel more comfortable putting the pouch on just before the routine. The big pouch can be a bit unwieldily if you move around a lot.

I personally don't think it makes a big difference to the effectiveness of the routine when you put it on. I'd do whatever makes you comfortable.

Joe
Mario Morris
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P.S
I sit my pouch on the table, and then I talk and belt up. I agree with Joe it does not matter in one sense when you put on your pouch other when you do it is an obvious interactive slot, that you will lose if you put your pouch on before the show.
I will say if you are looking to develop C&B with a pouch. Then $40. on a Gazzo tape or any of his books is a freebe for what you will get out of it.
I just produced my own DVD for promo purpoes, in it I have my C&B routeen, I am blown away by how effective it is, I cant follow my self the pouch does work with out dought.
Mario
TheAmbitiousCard
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I can get the gazzo uncensored video if anyone needs it.
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Mr Amazeo
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When if comes to Gazzo's routine, I've kind of wondered about this myself. I would think that if someone from the audience were to theorize about where the final loads came from, the pouch would be immediately suspicious. It kind of falls under the ‘intuitively obvious’ theorem, that is, since they had to come from somewhere, the closest place they could have come from would be that pouch you put on right before you do the trick. I know people ‘get away with it,’ but is that really true? Not that I’m trying to diminish anyone’s routine, but we can’t delude ourselves into always thinking that we really pulled one over on them.

In contrast, Michael Ammar goes out of his way to remove his coat and distance himself possible explanations for the origins of the loads before he starts his C & B routine. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to compare Ammar with Gazzo as performers, I’m only trying to suggest a condition that Ammar uses to remove suspicion.

If a performer puts on a bulking pouch immediately before he begins a C & B routine, I would think that pouch would be a source of suspicion. Where else could 6 oranges and a melon come from? Gazzo defenders will insist that it works and that “it flies right by them,” but I have to think there has to be a better way, but I don’t know what it is.
Jim Wilder
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Well... I don't think there is a better way when on the street. I load from the pouch because it absolutely cuts all angles of a potential flash substantially. When I work the cups and balls indoors and I have guarded angles, I load from a small pouch in the small of my back.

As Jim pointed out in his post, yes, it is correct that I do not want spectators to put 2 and 2 together, but I try to rely on entertaining them well enough that they do not try to work it out backwards.

But also, as Mario "poke 'em in the eye" Morris pointed out, I too talk to the audience as I put my pouch on just before going into the cups and balls. Likewise, I have people examining the cups. I work out of the pouch by acquiring the balls, cups, and wand so that it seems like a tool as important as the aformentioned.

I would still like to hear more about this topic. It was just thinking things through a bit with my friend that started the idea buzzing in my head. I figured that those who also work the street would either wear the pouch for their entire show or just before it is needed and provide their justification for why.
Mario Morris
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As much as I like Michael Ammar and his little lemons (fans) he is not a street performer and could never do that C&B routine surrounded could he. It will look like he has a bad case of piles if he did.
The point is what ever you do people will say he had the lemons in his pocket or he had the oranges in his pouch.

The magic is that they did not see it and when you produce that Melon that blows there mind. The Gazzo pouch looks impossible to fit all that in so I hear people say to each other again and again "yea but where did that melon come from".

Mr Amazeo remember we are talking six large oranges and a very large melon, good magic will make people theorize weather you use a pocket or a pouch.
People theorize where it comes from what ever you use but they don’t see and they don't know how, that is the point.

When you use a pouch you are being up front so people know you did not try to hide this fact so it is dismissed, it is not important to you so it isn’t important to them. A bit like using a Tip for the first time, you are more aware of it than your audience is.

I have had more heckerlers saying it was in his pocket when I did not use a pouch. Could you imagine a heckler saying he got it out of his pouch. "Yes we know you thick patronizing prate" will come the reply, but SIX of them and where did that melon come from.
Does that help?
Mario
Mr Amazeo
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Thanks Mario - good points,
I know it’s a great routine, and I know Ammar wouldn’t do well on a street corner. I brought him up because of his work on teaching the cups and balls through his books and videos.

This started with the question about when to put on the pouch, and the way I’ve seen it done more often than not is just something I don’t agree with. So, sorry for the dissenting opinion, but if people are going to speculate about where everything came from, be it 6 large oranges and a melon, I’m of the opinion that all roads lead back to the pouch you put on before you started the routine. Just my opinion.

“People theorize where it comes from what ever you use but they don’t see and they don't know how, that is the point.” Sorry, but I give people more credit than that. They may not see it, but the pouch is a source of suspicion. Suspicion is a method. All they have to do is look for a plausible explanation and the magic is gone.

“When you use a pouch you are being up front so people know you did not try to hide this fact so it is dismissed,” Are we absolutely sure about this? People know it’s there, but I can’t always assume that it is dismissed.

I’m sure the pouch works, people have been doing it this way for, I’m guessing, 100's of years. I'm sure it gets great response. I just happen question the method and some of our assumptions about our audiences. Great discussion. Thanks.
Danny Archer
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FYI Gazzo will be doing a workshop on C&B the day after LVMI convention. Lvmi.net for details.
BroDavid
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Don't run if you aren't being chased.

I agree philosophically with Ammar about removing suspicion. (I am sure that he will be pleased to know that. Smile )

But practically I agree with Mario.

Can the specs really work backwards from the first three orange production, if they don't see the loads happening - (and who really does unless they know the routine?) And then suddendly the second set of three big oranges appears. And then the Melon appears from under the hat. How many people in the crowd are going to work backwards through aal of that and connect it to the pouch. And even if they do work backwards to the to the pouch, it doesn't even begin to look big enough to hold all of that stuff! So the backward link is broken, and they are immediately again still in wonder.

I knew what was happeing and knew where it was coming from, and still never saw it with Gazzo. So how do you connect the dots, when some of the dots are missing? I don't think you do. But if one or two do, so be it. They probably also know where the silk went when you stuffed it into your fist. They probably weren't going to tip anyway.

BroDavid
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Jim Wilder
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Quote:
On 2004-07-30 20:44, Mario Morris wrote:
As much as I like Michael Ammar and his little lemons (fans) he is not a street performer and could never do that C&B routine surrounded could he. It will look like he has a bad case of piles if he did.


That is great! I haven't laughed that hard in a long time, Mario.
Still laughing,
Jim

p.s. Amazeo, I didn't take your comment in a dissenting tone. You made a very good point and one that I think is extremely relevant to the topic at hand.
Michael Baker
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To Mr Amazeo... and then to some of the others,

Mr Amazeo, you have my full 100% support as the only rational voice I hear in this whole thread. The argument against your stand seems to revolve around the fact that when Gazzo opens his fruit stand, not one spectator is able to connect the dots in a backward trail.

To some of the others...True as that may seem on the surface, the reality can best be seen by looking at the scenario backwards.

Suppose for a moment that the intended effect was a vanish rather than a production. When an object is vanished, the audience logically realizes that it did not simply cease to exist, rather, it went somewhere. But where? Unless there is a replacement object to immediately compete for the audience's attention, they stay on the trail of lost objects like bloodhounds. In most cases, decorum prevents them from ripping off the magician's clothes to find out what happened to the vanished object... but that does NOT mean that they have stopped suspecting. It only means that the magician has a moat between himself and his pursuers.

This basic idea has been greatly exploited in sucker effects utilizing table drapes, the "other" side, under the armpit, or wherever.

Now in the case of this production, it is wrongly assumed that the element of surprise is the end, rather than a means. "If we can't dazzle them with brilliance, we'll baffle them with B***S**T." Talk about sticking your heads in the sand!

First of all, why did the street performers from centuries ago use the gibiciere at all? Long before it was realized as a cool place to conceal objects and to load directly from, I'd suspect it was there because the magician needed a place to keep his stuff. It served more than one function... eventually. A table with a well or a hidden servante is only serving its purpose if the audience perceives it to be a table, this by the way the magician uses it. The pouch is no different.

Convenient or not, if the pouch is put on for no other purpose than to steal loads from, it is no different than walking to the table to steal something from the servante or to drop something into the well... and never again using that table! Imagine a magician who performs his entire routine while standing, and then suddenly sits down for one trick, just because he has to lap something. When he is finished, he stands up again to continue. Who are we fooling?

Whether worn for the entire show, or put on just at the beginning of the routine in question, the point should be to use the pouch for something that gives it a reason for being there. I am unconvinced that it is serving a logical pupose to put it on only to remove the props from it. You could have left it on the table and done that. The routine should be rethought and structured to make the pouch an integral part of it. Let the audience believe it has a purpose so they don't give it one.

To fall back on the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.", is really the epitome of good ol' boy politics, and a lazy belief that the status quo is ok because, "That's just the way we've always done it." The day I realize I've quit trying to improve myself and my magic, is the day I will quit magic.

Never, ever, EVER stop trying to improve your magic just because it is more convenient for you to leave it where it is. This has nothing to do with our convenience. I would much rather know my audience is wondering where all those bigs loads came from, than how I got them out of my pouch and under the cups without them seeing it happen. If the audience has only part of a solution, that is enough for them, and the magic is lost. BEWARE!!!
~michael baker
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Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-07-30 17:16, Mr Amazeo wrote:
.... I would think that if someone from the audience were to theorize about where the final loads came from, the pouch would be immediately suspicious.

Well, just a very few thoughts...

You tend to forget, that nobody is speculating re the *how too*, when truely entertained!

I've never seen Gazzo work, but I've seen Cellini.
IF you have, note how he establishes (now here I'm talking about later years, where his pouch is replaced by large frontpockets in his trousers (no melon there though:-)his audience to get used to he has his hands in these pockets (could be the pouch)when nothing happens and he is talking and joking..he often removes his hands guesturing and so showing them empty without drawing attention to them..when he then f.ex. steals the 4th ball for his C&B routine, as well as other stuff, ppl /often, not even magicians, would notice.

Note too, that a load (final load) of large objects is entirely different when done from a pouch or a (specially designed) front pocket then when done from normal trousers pockets..
I'm not a streetworker, but I have done the C&B earlier (now replaced by the Benson Bowl-for ease of carrying/props/spectator involvement),and I did load 3 LARGE oranges from my left trouserspocket and so do a few friends of mine in similar routines.

The loading technic is ENTIRELY different, as mentioned, but my main point is, it isn't/shouldn't be of any interest WHEREFROM the large loads are coming to the audience in the first place, IF one does present an entertaining routine, like the well known buskers do.

Nobody will think back to the pouch in these cases.

IMHO, the pouch is the best place to load from, better then a trousers pocket, BUT for non street-workers the trousers pockets will do-IF they are taylored/large enough to 'hide' the loads..

I never fancied the loads from the back-pocket, like Michael Ammar does, even The Professor did it sometimes, so did Michael Skinner, but I think this was mainly to, they did wear tight trousers...
Michael Ammar f.ex. is a great handler of this stuff, but IMHO, his loads from the back-pocket aren't deceptive enough..

Watch the old Doug Henning show where the Professor is loading his cups, note how he (mis)directs aso. here I especially think of when he taps the cup with his wand (sound and 'direction' of ppls vision) whilst at the same time the other hand leaves his pocket with a load.

Here is one from the Benson bowl..

Benson Bowl on the table, nothing thereunder.
Pick up a sponge (large one)with the right hand, fake transfer to the left, left hand to left trousers pocket to apparently replace the sponge at the same time pick up the wand with right hand, tap your left trousers pocket, left hand still inside, *From my pocket, under the bowl*, whilst pattering *from my pocket*, tap the pocket several times with the wand, *under the bowl*, tap the bowl with the wand several times, then lift the bowl with the right hand who also holds a hidden sponge as well as the wand, at the same time, the bowl is lifted, the left hand leaves the pocket with a large load and rests on the left hip.

Looking down at the table where there is *nothing* you look at the spectator who earlier got loaded an extra sponge in his hand (suppose to be one, but in reality 2), guesture with the right hand holding bowl and wand (and sponge) towards that spectator on your left, asking him to open his hand..

Whilst all attention is on that, you load the bowl and place it on the table, right thereafter you go with your right hand holding the wand (and sponge palmed) towards the spectators hands who now has opend it, and wift the wand once over it..

All this has drawn the attention from the load of the bowl.

Note, how the load of the large object (in my case a 'burger') is done in 2 steps..

First step is where the hand leaves the pocket -to the hip- under cover of looking at the empty space on the table under the bowl, then note how the bowl is loaded whilst attention is on the spectator at your left opening his hand..
Note to lean forward with your body towards the table when going to lift the bowl, and 'raise' your body when lifting, looking down in disbelieve at the empty space at the table..turn the hand with the bowl, bowl opening upwards to the right making an remark, guesture to the left to the spectator asking him to open his hand..aso.
Your bodyposition plays a huge part in the success of this load..

Yes, I know, akwsome to read/difficult to understand from that description, and most will not think more about it..

Well, those who think about it and try it out, will have a load that is almost indetectable..and that could be applyed to other routines.

PS...back to the topic, which almost got forgotten to get answered.
IMHO, a pouch should be worn right from the beginning of ones show.
It should be used to 'rest' your hands inside whilst talking, bring them out empty to guesture and throwing some lines Smile - no pun intended - so WHEN you do some secret work using the pouch, it will get unnoticed due to earlier innocent handling..
Here is also the reason why I would prefer a separation between 2 compartments, makes it more natural, instead of a large 'one opening only' pouch, but I can't argue..experts like Gazzo can always proof me wrong, Cellini possibly would agree..it's still up to each and every one to find out what's best to him -after some thinking..
I have my own opinion on that, others will have another one - still accepted and eaqually correct..for them!

Get 'em used to your hands are inside the pouch -especially in wintertime Smile - and they'll accept it...

I can't imagine anyones act is that long, that it matters to have loads inside due to weight..take the pouch off during a short break between shows and put it on again just before starting your next show..

Only my opinion, -I'm not a streetworker, but I'm used to think about how to get away with handling-flaws..

Regards
Werner
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
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