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star-n1 New user Belgium 20 Posts 
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What type of games are played with this cup?
https://youtube.com/shorts/VtUIQ_X_c7s?si=_6yJcSV2-x5FrEv7 |
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Mr. Bones Veteran user 359 Posts
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Dice cups are normally intended to ensure a fair shake, not to conceal the dice once the shake is complete - so for many dice games this wouldn't really help you with anything.
The exception would be dice games like "Liars Dice", where players go around the table and bid on what dice are showing under the cup, and do so before the cup is lifted off the dice. It's early and I haven't had my coffee yet, and I don't play Liars Dice, but it would seem that this cup would best be used in a game like Liars Dice with only one other player (and the other player would use the gaffed cup). Not surprisingly for this type of gaff (which likely originates in China), Liars Dice is known as Chui Niu in China, and is a popular game there. For those in the know, the super-shiny plastic on the inside of the bottom of the cup (much like the ribbed material on the inside of a Whip Cup or the weirdly oversized bottom plate/cover on a Butterfly Cup) would be an instant give-away, so one would have to be at a table of folks with zero knowledge of gaffed dice equipment.
Mr. Bones
"Hey Rube"! |
JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1760 Posts
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Pai Gow tiles (both the casino game and the same format found in serious private games) uses 3 dice in a cup shaken to randomize the start of the deal. This cup was likely designed to cheat at the private game version of Pai Gow, as a hand can be setup by a dealer and then controlled to an agent or opponent if the dice roll that establishes the beginning of the dealing sequence is already known. That's not a typical casino Pai Gow dice cup, so you're not likely to find one in the big joints in Macau.
Cups where the dice can be seen by looking through the lid using specialized plastic and cameras were mentioned in Forte's Casino Game Protection in 2003. I'm not at all surprised that miniature cameras have been utilized to see the total. In fact, what took so long? Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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The Dowser Special user Canada 765 Posts
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In Pai Gow tiles, the tiles are set before the shake of the dice, it would seem more profitable in those situations to be able to manipulate the roll of the dice rather than to know it... although incorrect delivery styles could come into play (a very hazardous method of beating players in a private game as they all watch the delivery). This cup is more likely for games where it is traditional to bet after the shake but before the reveal. Cho/Han (even/odd); private/street Sic bo (most, if not all casino's don't follow this tradition); and some bar style games similar to liars dice.
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1760 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 24, 2025, The Dowser wrote: The tiles are set ahead of time, but having more than 1 opportunity to shake the dice is the key. Dice flashes, see-thru cups, etc., have been used already in the casino (and presumably private) version of the game. The cup is shaken once and if the dice settle on a "good" outcome for the team - it's revealed. If not, they shake again. This cup would be perfect for that. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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The Dowser Special user Canada 765 Posts
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That is a good possibility that you mention, as there would be no need to alter the delivery style (although I've never seen a casino game use this style of cup...something I realize you have already alluded to). These dice flashes and see through cups that you mention having been already used in the casino, can you refer us to any particular incident or casino where they have been discovered? Or is this "inside info" about something that has happened but hasn't been "caught" or reported?
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1760 Posts
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From a 2010 issue of Cigar Aficionado:
Quote:
Bernard Ko, who consults on gaming and game-protection in California, points out that for the most innovative cheaters with a high-tech bent, tools of the trade have become frighteningly discreet. "There was a dice cup that had a tiny camera on top," he says. "In Pai Gow Poker, three dice are rolled inside a metal cup to determine which cards go to which players. With the camera transmitting information from inside the cup, and cards or tiles marked with infra red ink, visible only with special glasses or contact lenses, the cheats have a huge advantage." Ko hesitates for a beat, before explaining that strict procedures forbid players from betting after the dice settle. But, he acknowledges, dealers, for various reasons, sometimes fail to follow those procedures. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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The Dowser Special user Canada 765 Posts
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Thank you Jason.
" Ko hesitates for a beat, before explaining that strict procedures forbid players from betting after the dice settle." A quote exactly relevant to this discussion. "...dealers, for various reasons, sometimes fail to follow those procedures." Various reasons usually means social engineering, weak staff (dealers or the management they answer to), or direct collusion... which itself can be masked as either social engineering or inexperienced/ weak dealers. The example Bernard Ko gives involves a gaffed cup and marked cards/ tiles, presumably without having the dealer in on the scam (with the dealer in, less gaffs/hard evidence would seem necessary). For those reasons, and the idea that the person shaking the dice may have to do multiple rolls to get to the desired total, it is difficult to see this as a "perfect" gaff to take of the tiles game. |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1760 Posts
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I meant that the cup would be perfect for knowing the dice total aspect, not a perfect gaff for Pai Gow overall.
Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22682 Posts
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As a practical matter as far as construction goes, how long before the camera just goes out from all the shaking? A novel idea, but is it at all practical?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1532 Posts
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A company I work for we made field computers for the military and they had to be spec out for combat.
So they may do the same. Or go cheap and just we replaced when they fail. |
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Posted: Jun 20, 2025 08:15 am 
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