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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1516 Posts 
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I believe legend is the chop cup is a response to Johnny Fox cups and balls routine. Al Wheatley (AKA Chop Chop) thought that was the method being used (magnet in the cup). I will not reveal the method, Fox used sponge balls, which at the time was common.
The magic community has/is constantly looking for new methods and improvements. Personally I have NEVER had the desire to impress other magicians. And I find this odd for those who do. I find all aspects of magic fascinating, and only make suggestions or inform others of the options that are available. This type of dialog expands my awareness and thus add to my enjoyment. That is magical. I find the current method discussed to have many more advantages then the traditional Chop Cup. But I understand if you believe the traditional it is superior to that of any other method. The wheel can not be improved, it is still just a cup.. opps just a wheel. I choose everything. You have options. |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 2130 Posts
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I'm not sure you've actually seen what Just A Cup can do. The gimmick Hecklau uses allows for much greater freedom and flexibility than a standard chop cup. The ability to have the die appear or not on command, the ability to pick up the loaded cup, show it empty and reload it at will, the ability to pull the die through the bottom of the cup and the ability to have the spectator FEEL the die appear in the cup. These are not possible with standard chop cups, but they are all possible with Just a Cup using the, I believe, superior Hecklau gimmick.
Quote: On Apr 29, 2026, Dannydoyle wrote:
Know that adversity is promised to all of us, what we do with it is what makes us special.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22727 Posts
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I have seen this exactly. Do you blink when his fingers twitch? Or is that just something a spectator won’t notice? The bizarre way you have to run your hand along the cup in order to steal the die. Again not optimal but if you like it go with it. (By the way the fake spectator yelling bit never impresses me.)
You CAN have a regular cup examined. Oh and the load the bag Tommy Wonder idea where you basically tell them how the effect is done is not impressive to me either. If you think these things are all advantages then fantastic. They can be exactly that. But please do not make the mistake of mischaracterizing how the other version works. That is really my only point.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22727 Posts
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Look if you think it is the greatest object under an inverted object, I don't even want to try to talk you out of that position. Cool. It can be and probably 100% is for you and for your purposes. I am not disputing that at all. It is 100% correct.
But please don't give me the making it up bit, because if you make certain you don't blink in the video at 3:18 you DO SEE his fingers twitch or move or however you want to phrase it. It happens again at 3:30. At 4:45 it is hidden on the back of the shot, but you can still catch it some. Don't tell me it doesn't happen. It happens. It is not made up. You may want to pretend nobody will notice. Perhaps this can be true. But that is a different discussion from making it up. It is the same thing with guys who twitch on the Side Steal, or the thumb that shoots out when they palm a coin. I am old enough to remember when magicians used to try to avoid these things. I have see Tommy himself do the bag thing for spectators and they, when he left, talked about how he just took it out of his pocket and put it under the cup without them seeing. Not a really impressive reaction. But hey sure that is made up I guess right? And no it is absolutely NOT a natural way to show a cup empty. Pick it up with one hand, grab it with the other and pass it through the other hand to flip it to show the cup empty. No. You would just pick it up and show it empty. Sorry it is far from natural. But again NONE of that is relevant. Not one bit of it matters. If you like it, and if YOU think it is great and it fits what you do, then it is all irrelevant. You using it for your act is 100% the thing to do.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Max T. Oz Loyal user 210 Posts
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Like Smithart, I have spent some time playing with Chop Cup alternatives such as a PK ring.
Not to reinvent the wheel but always looking for other options...partly as a magician and partly as a performer. I had the pleasure of meeting Hecklau and seeing him perform his 'Just a Cup' in person. I was very very impressed. He has also many other ingenius and very applicable items/routines that he performs & markets. Below is just a couple clips from past I dug up and just downloaded to youtube. Playing around with ball penetrations. Was a work in progess only but just posting to maybe give Smithart (and anyone else) some ideas. Better or worse? Yeah nah. Just food for thought. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22727 Posts
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Quote:
On May 3, 2026, Max T. Oz wrote: Folks reinvent the wheel all the time with wonderful success. Rubber wheels, air tubes, better tread, use it for gears and watches. Many do it with wonderful success. I admire those who do. I would encourage it. This is different from running when not being chased.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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smithart Special user Texas 841 Posts
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Quote:
On May 2, 2026, Max T. Oz wrote: Thanks for sharing this!
AKA Professor Memento
https://mementomysteries.com |
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Max T. Oz Loyal user 210 Posts
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Your welcome Smithart.
I dug these up & posted the clip because, for those interested, it shows some handling variations that having an external gimmick allow. Stealing the ball out of the cup inverted or right side up, complete control of releasing the ball, able to pick the ball up from the table and also the move so often done with the normal chop cup of the fake pour into the hand. Alls these moves work with a PK ring also but it needs to be a powerful one along with stonger balls. Lots of other things you can do with it such as a really good looking fake pass (fingers stay open) and if you do the Sylvester Pitch...receiving hand easy breezy. Only thing I can add is with all these moves....Keep It Simple. 
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smithart Special user Texas 841 Posts
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I just picked up Falcon Ring by Josh Burch, since the tutorials include a PK version of the classic Don Alan routine.
It came with three rings in different sizes, and three magnetic (Canadian) nickels. The rings look too much like a gimmick to me, but I'm going to try them out. Regardless, I can definitely make use of the teaching and the nickels with my existing rings. I'm a cheapskate, but the price doesn't seem too bad for everything you get. (As much as I'm interested in "Just a Cup," I just can't justify the cost.)
AKA Professor Memento
https://mementomysteries.com |
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Stperformer Loyal user 294 Posts
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Craig Petty posted a vid recently with details on the workings of his 'Chop'.
Reckon some of the ideas might be also useful/transferable with a PK ring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M73KUb9XBxg Personally, using a crunched up bill never appealed to me but you could also use a regular gimmicked chop cup ball. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22727 Posts
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It is one thing to expose his own crap, that is fine. What gives him the right to tip the gaff on a chop cup?
Just doing it so casually boggles the mind. I don’t care who it affects, I don’t care how old it is, it is not his to expose. Either exposure is wrong or it isn’t. Either it matters or it doesn’t.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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smithart Special user Texas 841 Posts
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Quote:
On May 8, 2026, Dannydoyle wrote: Danny, I tend to agree, but there are degrees of exposure, and degrees of how much it matters.
AKA Professor Memento
https://mementomysteries.com |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 2130 Posts
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Exposure of this type doesn't matter. It's already been done, and it's out there, Wiki and all. Muggles don't care enough to look this stuff up. They can't be bothered to care about the REALLY IMPORTANT STUFF that affects their lives, health, rights, and liberty. You really think they care about any of this magic stuff for more than about five seconds? And even if they do, what are the chances they are going to run into ANOTHER magician in their lifetime? Performing the SAME trick? Nah, chances are slim to none and slim just walked out the door...
The comments are all from magicians thanking Craig in one form or another. The only people who can be bothered to watch and care are magicians... Quote: On May 9, 2026, Dannydoyle wrote:
Know that adversity is promised to all of us, what we do with it is what makes us special.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22727 Posts
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Quote:
On May 9, 2026, smithart wrote: No there are not degrees. Either it is exposure or it is not. Either it matters or it doesn't. Anything else is just excuses to justify behavior.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22727 Posts
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Quote:
On May 9, 2026, Kaliix wrote: Mind you I don't really think exposure hurts magic at all. I don't think it has ever affected me at all. Not the point I am making. It is more one of ethics right? Yes 90% of those who watch his stuff are magicians to be certain. OK so if he exposes his own creations, who cares? I have ZERO problem with the idea of him exposing things he created. In this case he certainly did NOT create the Chop Cup did he? My question is what gives him the right to expose that, NO MATTER WHO it is to? I would think particularly as a magic creator he would be more sensitive to this. Forget the "secret" aspect of it for just a second. It is NOT his intellectual property to begin with. He then goes and just casually tips the gaff on it in order to self aggrandize and make his product look better. I think THAT aspect of this is entirely wrong. I don't care if it is "exposure" that impacts me or not. It is just that ethically doing this you will take the guard rails off of everything. Again my argument is NOT that it "hurts magic" or what not. I don't think it is the end of magic as we know it or any of that. I AM however saying it is at the very least ethically less than great to do it. And by the way yes the only people who watch or care are magicians. SO tipping the gaff on a competing product to promote yours, again kind of not cool isn't it? Think about it if Penguin or whoever sold wallets by tipping the gaff on all the other wallets. Would that be cool? Telling how other effects work in order to sell one specific effect. Again the guard rails will be gone and do you believe this is where magic should go?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 2130 Posts
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I get it, Danny, and we pretty much agree. Pre-2010 is one thing, but the reality is that right now, anyone who really cares and can put together a decent search term can have that computer in their pocket give them the answer in less than a minute. Right away, without any delay or remembering to do it later. The knowledge is out there already, just a search away, and we can't stop it.
Who REALLY owns the idea of a chop cup? It has been around forever. I think Craig was trying to be forthright with a good heart and tried to allow consumers of magic to make an informed choice. But I get you might not see it that way. Quote: On May 9, 2026, Dannydoyle wrote:
Know that adversity is promised to all of us, what we do with it is what makes us special.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22727 Posts
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Ethics are not a matter of dates. Yes there is easy access to information. Does this excuse the behavior?
I can tell you easily who owns the rights to the Chop Cup. Not Craig Petty. Simple as that. Again in not trying to slash the guy and Kalix I certainly am not slagging you at all. Yes he is trying to put his product in the best possible light, by tearing down another. Would it be ok to do this with all magic effects? Where does it stop? It just is wrong even if it is the Information Age and there are no secrets. That has nothing to do with personal behavior. Even if the info is accessible, why should he tip anything not his? I know this is the new way magic is thought of. I’m not certain it is an improvement.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Posted: Apr 29, 2026 10:35 pm 
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