Tom not knowing that the quote he used was attributed to someone incorrectly. He never bother to look. He admitted he liked the sentiment. He annoyed he didn’t care about anything but how it makes him feel.

This is looking for quotes to further your own opinion. If that is not quote mining I’m using the term wrong. You look for something that agrees with how you feel and never bother to look further. You confirm your own bias without research. It is 100% what he did and he admitted it and made excuses for it. So give us the proper definition of whatever that is please. Just using quotes that make you feel good that you don’t understand is called what?

I would prefer that prior to statements of fact being made they are first at least researched just a little. I would think with such a heavy academic background you might actually agree with that post. In any of those papers you read do you just allow people to misquote like that? I know you will reflexively just try to make an excuse to argue because your feelings are hurt. I’d encourage you not to. You know full well the answer is actually no it wouldn’t fly.

I get it you’re angry for whatever reason. Being angry and offended doesn’t make you right.

Also it is funny when people want to believe they know someone through only what they write or spending a couple hours with them at a convention they are being paid to be at. Those of us who spent time with the living and breathing people probably know a bit huh? Naw it is all academic and what happens in reality isn’t important at all.

Oh, I absolutely know Eugene through his writing, just as he's on record as saying he knew Bert Allerton, even though he never met him or saw him perform. Did I have the privilege to sit down and share a meal with Eugene? Sadly not.

I think your reaction is disproportionate to the situation. This is an online discussion forum, not an academic essay that Tom has submitted for assessment, or an article for publication in a magic periodical.

To be fair, many people attribute that quote to DaVinci because he had a habit of leaving his artwork unfinished, the most famous example being the Mona Lisa. So he clearly lived by the quote, even if he didn't say it.

As a recovering perfectionist, I'm very familiar with this quote; the first time I heard it was in the late 1990s from George Lucas: "Films are never finished, only abandoned." He was (accidentally?) repeating something said in 1946 by Maya Deren: "A work is never completed, but merely abandoned." And Maya was on record as saying that her quote (and the title of her artwork "Three Abandoned Films") was directly inspired by the poet Paul Valery who, in 1933, published an essay in "La Nouvelle Revue Francaise" ("The New French Review") about his poem "Le Cimetiere marin" ("The Graveyard by the Sea"). So the actual quote was in French:


This roughly translates to: "In the eyes of those who anxiously seek perfection, a work is never truly completed - a word that for them has no sense - but abandoned; and this abandonment, of the book to the fire or to the public, whether due to weariness or to a need to deliver it for publication, is a sort of accident, comparable to the letting-go of an idea that has become so tiring or annoying that one has lost all interest in it."

The quote was about art (poetry), so hasn't been taken out of context. I didn't see the need to correct Tom because his intention was good and this is, after all, the equivalent of a chat with some fellow magicians at your local pub. The quote was not taken out of its original context, so I don't consider this quote mining, at least not in the strict sense of the term.

Here's a favourite quote of mine to bring this discussion full circle. I'm sure Eugene would have agreed with the sentiment:


Marty

Here is where you lose me. You think you can claim that he would agree based on what?

It is this presumptuous attitude that really is improper.

And by the way just because a lot of people make a mistake does not mean somehow it turns into not being a mistake. This is the erosion Tom is speaking of. (Funny by the way how you only want to lash out at me when Tom is making even better points isn’t it?) A lot of people making a mistake only speaks to how much erosion has happened and in Toms metaphor, how much wedding is necessary. As such a learned academic I am shocked you defend this sort of thing. I really am. Is it demanding perfection to have someone do the slightest bit of research to correctly attribute a quote? If so I guess I’m guilty.

So please make your position clear. Should one use quotes without proper research into their origin just because they like the feeling? When someone gets it wrong and is passing on dumb knowledge, (An Ostrich Burt’s their head in the sand for example.) do you believe it is an act of kindness not to tell them so they keep looking stupid when they say it? Or is it better to save them embarrassment, even if it stings? Because your kindness quote sort of misses that part. And don’t now move the goalpost to the way something is said please.

Marty,

I checked out the Quote Investigator last night and I really like it. Thanks for sharing that. I knew it existed but never thought about it that much.

Like I said, if I had been putting it in a book, I may have dug deeper checking it out, but honestly, I’m really not sure I would have, because I’ve never seen it credited any other way. I even have a sign of the saying with his name on it that I’ve had for years.

Today, as I write this, Michaels the largest arts, crafts, and framing specialty retailer in North America sells wall hanging of the ‘saying’ with the Da Vinci name on it. I’m sure Walmart sells it too. I know there are posters with it being sold on eBay, Etsy and many other online shops every day.

The Quotes Websites Goodreads, A to Z Quotes, Brainyquote, and many others credit Leonardo da Vinci with it. One has Paul Valery saying it this way: “An artist never really finishes his work, he merely abandons it.” One place even has it credited to both. So who do you trust the most, not to mention quotes often keep getting whittled down and the shorter version become a ‘sayings’ more than a ‘quote.’ And I’m not sure Da Vinci did not say it in some way or other.

Still, I now do accept the fact that Paul Valery deserves the credit for the original, but am I burning my sign, I don't think so.

Tom

Is it written in... code?
Eh? Eh? DaVinci? Code? I'm here all week.

Danyy, Eugene says in many places that a performer should "love" their audience. He also fully supported David Devant's "All done by kindness" philosophy. This is why I'd assume he'd like the quote above and what it represents. Sure, I might be wrong; maybe I'll ask Larry. But why does it matter? I'm not claiming that Eugene liked the quote. However, the evidence in his writings suggests he may have agreed with Fitzgerald. He certainly wouldn't have told me I was wrong for liking the quote, nor would he have given Tom a hard time for making what amounts to an understandable mistake.

I think accurate citation matters if you're publishing the text in a book, newspaper, magazine, or journal article (or the online equivalent). If I make a mistake on my blog, I'd simply post a correction, as The Guardian does for its online articles (they do permit anonymous quotations, by the way):

i) Journalists must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information
or images, including headlines not supported by the text.
ii) A significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion must be corrected promptly and
with due prominence, and - where appropriate - an apology published.
iii) A fair opportunity to reply to significant inaccuracies should be given, when reasonably called for.
iv) While free to editorialise and campaign, a publication must distinguish clearly between
comment, conjecture and fact.
v) A publication must report fairly and accurately the outcome of an action for defamation to which it
has been a party, unless an agreed settlement states otherwise, or an agreed statement is published.

These are the generally accepted rules for journalistic writing. But Tom isn't even a journalist, so it is unreasonable to judge him by the same standards.

Tom, I'm glad you liked the site. It clearly is a labour of love for Garson. He puts an insane amount of time into each article. He certainly loves his readers!

Ha, best quote in this thread by far!

Good one Critter.

It's bad having two left hands.
(but notice I got it right once in the post)

Tom