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Chevrie Regular user West Texas 120 Posts |
Why is the classic coins across always performed with four coins? Isn't there something called "the rule of thirds" that dictates that three coins only should be used? Is that why the trick called "three fly" and its variations are so popular these days? Is it that much of an improvement over the classic four coins across or four coins through the table?
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
The simple answer is that it isn't.
The standard texts have routines using three, four, five, six and seven or eight. Four is most common but it's hardly "always". Three fly and it's decendants are popular because of the open nature of the effect. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The THREE coins across routine got popular ... um... by accident. Funny that the Silent Mora or Scarne or Vernon ball routine uses three balls, and nobody thinks to do the trick with four. Or the Slydini coins through table... could just as well start with eight or ten coins. It just happened that I was working on the Ramsay Trick 'Three Coins in the Hat' and was in a position to experiment with the coins across trick. I guess folks liked the look of it and so they copied.
There is no 'rule of three' aside from it being the smallest number that you can map a STORY onto: BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END. Beyond that... there are very few 'rules'. Even Pi is not three. Three is just the smallest number for some things, not necessarily the 'best'.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Chris "linkster" Watson Special user England 564 Posts |
Doug Brewer in his book Unexpected Visitor states his preferences on using 3 coins. Doug often posts here at the Café, I for one would love to hear his thoughts on it. I think there is something to be said for using three coins as hopefully you aren't rehashing the same old thing. On the other hand the likes of Slydini, Goshman et all tend not to have a problem how ever many coins they use. Perhaps it is just a good way of keeping us mere mortals (oh and Doug ) in check!
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
Apart from the symbolic and aestethic appeal of "3", I am very curious where "4" comes from.
Is it related from the fact that a deck of cards has 4 suits and cards and coins are related in magic? Tommy Wonder has an interesting essay on the number "3" in his books. (When I asked him how it worked, hoping I got some arcane esoteric answer he simply stated: Put 4 roses in a vase, what does it look like? Now take one out...) In coins-across types of effects I always go for three. It just feels and looks good. However when going to the table-surface, four seems to be the number of choice (matrici and assemblies). I think I once saw Rhune Klan do a 3-coins chinc-a-chinc. loooked not very good in my eyes...WHY??? The implications are also funny; if you've done one or more tricks with 3 coins, it is unwise to do a trick later with 4 (unless you want to talk with your spectator's about the intricate details of the one-ahead principle;-) The same counts vice versa...it is incredible hard to get the idea of an extra coin out of their heads when doing 3-fly after shadowcoins... And what about cups and balls...I swear by my two cup routine, but darn; three cups look much nicer...while four look rediculous... Is there some kabbalistic conspiracy going on? As a final thought, Slydini is one of my biggest influences, but I never cared for his use of so many coins in coins thru the table. Why so many coins? Why six or eight? Because he can? Strangely enough, he diminishes the number to make it "easier for me to follow". Is that true? Really?? Armando, in his matrix does not end with jumbo coins or explosions, but with one coin and two cards...and by God it is killing(yes people really did walk away with tears in their eyes at FISM!) Why???
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-08-11 07:23, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Hey Jon, I just want to make sure what you are writing here. Are you saying that you were the first to create a coins across routine using 3 coins? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Dan, the only pure ( not 3+3 ->6 ) three x's across I saw before was the phase in the Mora/Vernon/Roth/Scarne ball routine. Not even in a billiards routine. It is possible I was the first on that. I can't say I saw anyone doing a coins across using their C/S/B sets. There was ONE coins across around that used a fourth odd coin to attract the other three. I read the routine and used a small Greek coin for the odd coin. <- whose is this? Al Schneider's?
All I claim is that till my trick got popular, it was four coins across or the winged silver 3+3 thing as far as I can remember seeing anyone do the trick. Even Roth who uses three coins for his Portable Hole and three coins -> six for the Tuning Fork trick went with four coins for the trick. Does this mean someone is gonna get all pompous and announce the startling premier of a five coin version?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
I read Tommy Wonder's thoughts on the subject just last night.
He talks about 3,5,7,9 and how they are all more or less related to 3. It's an interesting and short essay. Something to consider. My suggestion would be that if you're going to use 3, have a reason for doing so. If 4, have a reason for that. Harry Anderson had a fantastic reason for counting to 4 1/2 during his close-up routine with the finger-chopper. He says, "on the count of three..." and then switches it to 4.... and 1/2. As john carney told me.... Have a reason for what YOU are doing. There are no gurus. I was going to keep that a secret but I love to share. Frank
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
I think it's down to individual preference. Myself, I use the rule of three for most of my multi-phase routines.
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
My first serious book on sleight of hand was Stars of Magic. Ross Bertram's "Passing The Half Bucks" used 4 coins so ever since then I've used 4 coins in my coins across effects. As mentioned before the number 3 has a special significance in nature and performing. Many jokes have 3 people or 3 phases or the punchline occurs to the third person or event. When I do 4 coins across there are 3 magical events. The second coin arrives in the right hand, then the third coin, and for the third phase the coins all return to the left hand. 4 coins, 3 phases, works for me.
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Al Schneider and Jules Lenier were vocal proponents of the "Rule of 3" early on, back in the ancient 70's that I'm aware of. Lenier used to (and still does) teach in his lectures that the first coin gets their attention, the second says "I can do it even when you're watching", and the third says "I can do it as often as I want". With this structure, you can see why he believes that the fourth coin is redundant, as it does not say anything new. This was discussed in the context of a 3 coins through the table routine.
Al Schneider's routine did, as Jonathan recalls, use three half dollars that travelled, and a fourth, odd coin that "attracted" them. The limitation to three travelling coins was an intentional departure from other "winged silver plus an odd coin" routines that were more standard at the time. You can find these in Bobo's, and they use four travelling coins. Tommy Wonder's coins across routine follows the same pattern as Mr. Schneider's. You have to recognize the difference between the number of coins used, which often is irrelevant, and the number of magical events, which is all the spectator really experiences. Most assembly routines, for instance, utilize four object, but there are only three magical events that occur. The fourth object does nothing except mark a place. This is distinguishable from coins across or through the table routines in which each coin is required to do the trick, thus giving you a number of events = number of objects. Similarly, I may use 13 coins in my coins across routine, 6 in each hand and an odd one, but if all 6 go across at once, that's only one event. Repeat twice, and you've got a 13 coin act that follows the Rule of 3. This observation is relevant if you're trying to combine routines harmoniously. Suppose you want to do Matrix, with its inherent 3 beat rythym, but you want to magically produce all four coins. That's going to give you four beats. Will anyone notice? Should you perhaps use a production sequence that starts with one coin already visible, making the "time signatures" of the routines consistent? (in familiar terms, does it matter whether you use "Sonic Squeeze" (aka the "Touch of Midas") to produce the coins, or "Twilight"? I tend to keep things simple, with three coins being about all I need to express most ideas. Kainoa, on the other hand, generally uses four. His position is something like, "okay, even if the Rule of 3 exists, isn't it time to try something new?" Why not?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-08-11 17:08, Curtis Kam wrote: And then of course there is the rule of 30 or more... which Reed McClintock subscribes to |
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MJ Marrs Inner circle Los Angeles 1124 Posts |
I really like a great fingertips coins across routine (e.g. U3F), but I also have a set of four half dollars and a shell that live in my front pocket: The first coin can't be seen or heard; the second isn't seen, but it's heard; the third is seen and heard; and the last involves the spectator's hand. In this sense, it's not really four coins travelling from one hand to another, but rather three coins travelling in a manner that gets better with each phase, and then an impossible encore involving the spectator. Sort of the 3 + 1 that Mike Rogers used with his cups and balls final loads.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Folks, Al Schneider was opening the door for taking the coin assembly into the hands. That is suggested by the term 'magnetic' coin. Also, the upper right hand coin is fixed in an assembly. Once understood, the THREE coins assemble or jump across ... becomes a simple theme. Does coins through the table or cup extend the theme?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
Back in the 60's...Larry Jennings was doing coins across with just 3 silver dollars.
Mike |
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Mike, didn't Vernon and Findley have a three coins across routine (two silvers and a copper, but they all go) published in the Chronicles?
When abouts did that one come about?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
My only published coins across (Psychlogical Coins Across) is a three coins across routine but it uses four coins.
I began trying to create a super clean three coin routine and chose to use the one ahead principle to make it appear as magical as possible. That led to the the ploy which makes it possible to be one ahead but not to have to conceal the extra coin. |
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
Do you mean that it uses 4 coins overt or covert?
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Dan,
Three coins pass one at a time. Four coins are used and all four coins are known to exist by the audience from the begining. The one ahead principle is used, along with other psychlogical schemes, to accomplish the effect. One move, done once. And if you really want to be precise, half a move done before the effect begins. It's simple but not easy. |
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-08-11 22:23, mike gallo wrote: Absolutely right Mike! I have notes on this from Larry. If you and I are on the same page, he uses the pop-up move as a major technical element - is that what you are referring to? Best, PSC By the way, Bill Duncan's coin material is top-notch, and the "Psychological Coins Across" is a quantum leap forward in THINKING about this effect. The PRINCIPLE is worth the effort required to learn it (never mind the paltry fee...), even if you never do the trick. Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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