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coolleprechaun
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Are these as good as the ones Tony Clark sells because Penguin sells them for a very low price?
maxwell
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Hi Coolleprechaun,

Good question! It'll be tough for people to answer this question for a few days since the Slydini Silks have only been available through Penguin for a few hours.

But, I've got some Penguin Slydini Silks sitting on my desk right now, and I feel confident in saying they're some of the best Slydini Silks ever made (perhaps even the best since Slydini had them made for himself). And they're available for the lowest price since 1969!

We're so confident in the quality of our Slydini Silks we're happy to offer a full money-back guarantee on the Penguin Slydini Silks. Anyone who doesn't like them for any reason can send them back for a full refund.

Best,

Maxwell Murphy
Penguin Magic
Bob Sanders
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Since Tony Slydini himself in the 1960s taught me this routine, there are really several factors that come into play here.

The first is very obvious; they don't come from Tony Slydini.

The second fact is that you don't have to have Tony Slydini's silks to do the routine. I publicly performed this routine in Birmingham the first week of this month with regular colored 4/5 momme silks.

My third concern is the license to sell the item as a trick with Slydini instructions. Tony Clark and I are former Tony Slydini students. (Tony Clark is also writing Dove Hotline now, which I also started and wrote for over six years. Currently I am trying to get two books finished before fall.)

Personally, I am unaware of any connection between the folks at Penguin Magic and Tony Slydini. I would want assurance that a licensing agreement between them did in fact exists. Otherwise, I would suggest that one skip buying the silks until they attend a lecture from a Tony Slydini student on the subject.

The trick is not in the silks. Tony made the silks from parachute silk (nylon) and a "planned error" to allow the magician to use two white silks. Using two white silks is certainly not a requirement of the trick. I have not performed the trick with white silks since the 1970s.

It is a very good trick and routine that can be done close-up or on stage. The only reason I would use white silks is because they fit the rest of my act. In my case it does not. I let my volunteer choose any two colors from three colors of six silks used in the previous routine. In Birmingham, I let the volunteer keep his favorite of the two as a souvenir. In Birmingham, black was the favorite "keeper" color. Obviously, the silks were not a major factor. The handling is everything.

The decision is still yours.

Good Luck!

Bob
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Rob Johnston
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Well said Bob.

Maxwell...are you licensed "to sell the item as a trick with Slydini instructions?"
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
chrisrkline
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The only thing that I have seen is that they explain how to tie a knot so that it slips off the the other silk. I don't know if that is something Slydini can license or not. I don't think that they are selling his routine, unless Slydini's routine is pretty basic, and I don't know what Slydini instructions are, unless it is how to tie a knot. Besides, Palmer claims to have the exclusive right to manufacture the silks, so maybe that is the problem (although, I don't know whether Slydini can grant true legal rights to manufacture parachute cloth silks unless he patented it somehow.)
Chris
Robert_V_Frazier
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I bought the Slydini Silks package from L&L Publishing. It consists of the chapter on the silks from the book The Annotated Magic of Slydini by Lewis Ganson, along with a set of the silks and a mini-DVD with Bill Malone's routine "Test of Strength" from the On the Loose DVD set. There is much more to it than just instructions on how to tie a knot. It's a complete routine, with the silks tied and untied in a variety of ways, with different knots, some tied by the magician, some by a spectator. The final phase is an effect of splitting a knot tying the two silks together into two knots, one on each silk. This is shown in the demo clip at Penguin. Even from the demo, it's clear that they are selling Slydini's whole routine, not just a set of silks and not just how to tie a self-untying knot.

Robert V Frazier
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Tom Cutts
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Quote:
I don't know whether Slydini can grant true legal rights to manufacture parachute cloth silks unless he patented it somehow.)


No, but his heirs can enforce a restriction of the use of Tony's performing name. So at least a change in the product name is in order, but this is nothing new for Penguin.

Cheers,

Tom
pikacrd
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Good Call Tom.
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
chrisrkline
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Well I am getting the routine from Penguin. If they are selling the whole Slydini routine without permission, then I agree it is wrong. I am not sure they are. The teaching video covers each phase in a rather blase way. Maybe that is the routine. But there is not much theater to it, not if you compare it to Slydini and Malone. I own the Malone DVD, so at least I will feel comfortable about the purchase. The use of the name Slydini is for the lawyers. It really doesn't affect Slydini as much as it affects the company, to which he gave permission to make the silks. But I think other companies make the silks, too, and sell them in many magic store.
Chris
Bob Sanders
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Other people make $20 bills too! It is not a career path I would recommend, even for a magician.

Bob
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Tom Cutts
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Ignorance of the matter is a fair enough cop out for not caring… so let me tell you a little about the manufacturer of this product. Rob Stiff, the Owner of Magic Makers, is the kind of guy who sits at another man’s table, a guest in his house for the day and for a wonderful catered dinner on several occasions and then turns around and stabs his host in the back by selling knock offs of this hosts products… in specific these silks.

Rob Stiff is the kind of guy who copies the products of others and even steals the name (e.g. Golden Shells and these here silks) all in the name of “business”. No research and development, no product awareness building, just ship the original off to China and have it copied for pennies.

If you choose to support this type of person, then don’t be surprised when it is you who end up paying the consequences. I have never met Mr. Maxwell, but for me his poor business ethics speak volumes enough. When you are deciding on a product to purchase, unfortunately, companies like these two have created an environment where issues like these are part of the decision process. They are a match made in hades, one to produce the trash and another to liquidate it.

So now you know. Ignorance is no longer your defense. As many have said, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. It is your choice.

Cheers,

Tom
wayno
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I'm not too sure if this clears anything up about licensing, but Steve Pellegrino asked me to pass this on.

"I’ve received some email about Penguin Magic selling The Slydini Silks and if they are ripping off anyone. The answer is yes and no. I spoke with Louis Falanga today and here is the explanation. L&L owns the rights to The Magic of Slydini which includes the Slydini Silks routine and they also own The Annotated Slydini, which is an expanded version of the now out of print, The Magic of Slydini.

The Slydini Silks routine is also in print in Karl Fulves’ books The Best of Slydini and More, which D. Robbins owns.

So, unless Penguin has permission from D. Robbins & L&L (which they don’t), they cannot teach the Slydini Routine. If they are not teaching the Slydini routine and teaching their own version of the routine, then they cannot call it the Slydini Silks routine as it is a misrepresentation of what they are selling. “Slydini” is not a generic term for knots that seem to untie by themselves.

It’s important to understand the difference in what they are selling and the real Slydini Silks. I own the real deal from L&L, so I am not about to spend money to see what they are offering. But using common sense, logic, having seen the demo video on Penguin’s web site and from past experience, I suspect that once again, the Penguin customer is losing out. Here’s an example of how. On the Bill Malone DVDs, he teaches his version of the routine, however he goes on to say that if you want (and I hate using this phrase) “the real work", you have to read The Annotated Slydini because there is more in there than he can teach on the DVDs. I suspect Bill Malone has more experience than most and even he is saying read Slydini. I doubt the Penguin customers will get the same insight as someone who reads the book.

What about Tony Clark & Steve Draun? They both sell it. Do they have permission?

This is where Penguin should have taken it’s cue. Neither Tony Clark or Steve Draun are selling the“Slydini Silks” routine. They are selling their own versions of it and have other names for the product. Tony Clark calls his Sly Scarves. For those Penguin customers reading this, Tony Clark was a student of Slydini and if you don’t want to buy the L&L version, buy Tony’s version. If you’re serious about the effect, you should buy both and learn from the master and the student.

So who is getting ripped off? Penguin customers, that’s who. They think they are learning Slydini Silks. The routine is being represented to them as Slydini’s. It isn’t. I’ve seen a trend with Penguin customers that they are content to be happy with inferior products. One quote I saw regarding the Golden Shells said “…they may not be perfect, but they’re good enough for me.” I think that is a shame. We need to strive for perfection, no matter if you’re doing magic as a hobby or a profession."
Wayne Stevenson
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Bob Sanders
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Wayne,

Thank you for your good work and sticking your neck out there in search of the truth.

Perhaps one day we can insist upon honest labeling of products. Many need a label that says,

"Think of this product as an ALMOST Perfect Tattoo. It's permanently INFERIOR by design!"

"Everybody else knows that at its best, it is a lousy job, but you alone may be unable to see it."

Then we can open a new forum:

Magic By Self-deception of the Magician!

Or

Slydini's Fakes Over the Head of The Chump Magician!

“And the Winner Isn’t…”

Bob
Magic By Sander

I'm glad I saved my money and got the real thing!
Bob Sanders

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AmazedWiz@Yahoo.com
Webhead93
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I visited Penguin today and they have changed the promotion at the top of the page to Sly Silks and if you click on that link it goes to a page where they are called Sly Silks and are now described as Slydini style silks. But there is still an ad in the middle of the home page that says Slydini Silks.
A. Mark Wilson
wayno
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Almost there. Smile
Wayne Stevenson
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Webhead93
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Now it says Sly D Silks!


Ok, now they have changed all the ads to Sly Silks. I feel ok to buy them now.
A. Mark Wilson
chrisrkline
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So I sit here with my legally purchased Malone DVD, with his routine using the Slydini silks. But wait, is he really using the Slydini silks sold by Palmer? I suppose he is, but he doesn't say. I do suspect that he may have learned the routine by Slydini himself. I hope so, because if he did not, or at least gotten permission to teach the routine, the magic community would has descended on Malone like a ton of bricks. He does suggest that we buy Slydini's book, but I guess it is OK to also buy Malone's DVD. But do I need both to be accepted by the magic police?

So I also buy the 14 dollar Penguin silks. I bought them when they were called Slydini silks, although I knew they weren't his personally. I knew I had a legal right to perform the routine, so I figured I could buy the stupid silks from anyone I wanted. Palmer doesn't lose money, since I would have never sent them a dime to buy 35 dollar silks. If I make some money with this, then I will buy the better silks and keep the cheaper ones for practice.

So what do all of you really feel? Not about Maxwell or Penguin, or some mythical amateur magician trading secrets on the internet. I am talking about me—someone who owns the cheap silks and Malone's DVD. Am I the ignorant one here? Am I ruining magic?

I think some of you need to be more open here and say what you really feel Smile. I think that what some of you are really ****ed at is that people can get into magic without first becoming an apprentice to some professional. I think that too many of you think it is too easy. I am tempted to say the same thing, now that I can label myself as one of those "good guys" who buys the classic books, works forever on perfecting my routines, yada, yada, yada. But still I feel like I am on the outside looking in.

If Penguin is doing something wrong—violating copyrights or patents—then they should suffer. I am not defending them. But people who buy from Penguin are not thieves.

And be careful. No matter how far you are into magic, there is always someone above you who thinks you are ruining it for them.
Chris
Webhead93
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Chris, I do not think you are ignorant. I was actually thinking of doing what you did. I have the Malone DVD already which I suppose gives me the right to perform this (?) but I just need the silks. So does it matter where I get the silks from? I suppose not but Penguin is not only selling the silks but I assume they are selling a routine as well. Is it original? Is it Slydini's? I don't know.

My previous posts were not meant to bash Penguin but to point out how they seemed to scramble to make the change at the same time this thread was going on.

There has been other instances though along with this one that make me hesitate to do business with them. The decision would be a lot easier if they didn't have such low prices!
A. Mark Wilson
chrisrkline
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The trouble is that I did not know they were also selling the routine. This is true anytime I walk into any magic shop. You have to take the word of the proprieter. I do not know enough about what Slydini teaches to judge what Penguin sells.

My point was that there sometimes seems to be a feeling that if company X is in the outs in the magic community, anyone who doesn't openly condem that company is also at fault. This is all done in the name of ethics, as if the ethics is always black and white. It is not. Maybe it is in one instance, but not others.
Chris
l2andall
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I purchased X amount of stuff from Penguin Magic, and therefore I recieved the sly silks with my order. However, I did not recieve any instructions, or anything... This has happened to many people on the penguin forums also. What's going on over there?
Think inside the box while everyone else is busy thinking outside of it.
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