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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Smooth as silk » » Penguins Slydini Silks (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Tom Cutts
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Chris,

You have read about the issues of Penguin on this board, but you bought the cheap silks anyway because they were cheap. You tell us basically "I don't know what is going on" but you ignore those who do know and just do what is cheaper for you. You are questioning about Penguin, so clearly you have concerns.

Your actions have spoken for you.

Tell us now, you have the instructions for Penguin's product. Whose routine is it?

Cheers,

Tom
chrisrkline
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Little Rock
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This is what I have from Penguin. I have Sterling Scotch and Soda. Is this a cheap knock off of the Johnson product? I certainly took money out of their pockets by buying the Sterling product. I also own the Stealth Pen. Cheap knock off? Or is it a reasonably priced alternative for someone who doesn't want to spend the 40 bucks, or so, that the fancy original cost? But I was just buying some neat tricks back then, which were reasonable priced. I wasn't even on this forum then. Of course I can go to my local store (a great one in Little Rock,) and buy both of the those products, although he sells a different cheap knock off of the original pen through dollar effect.

I also own a few close-up pads (yes they were cheap) and On the Spot. Everything else I have (Ammar, Wilson, Malone, Vernon, Hamman, Skinner, etc) I bought at my local shop.

And yes the silks. I do own them. And I bought them after some of these controversies started--After the Lee Asher problem and the Magic Mints disaster. I did not know there was a problem with the mints, since I spend very little time on their shop page and had not seen the thread in their forums until a couple of days ago.

But, yes, I did not first research people’s opinions on the ethics of selling silk hankies. Since I have had the Malone routine for a year, I did not think about it. They are silk hankies.

You ask about the routine, but since I do not own the original Slydini routine I can't comment. Apparently it is very close to his routine.

What this comes down to is whether or not I should boycott the company. I am becoming more troubled by their business model, although I have had nothing but good service. Their use of Instant Downloads and instructional videos is where most of these problems are arising. Lately, the "Cheap Knock" off charge is coming to the front. Maybe magicians griped about the cheap pen-through effects when they first hit the market, and it has since died down, but it seems that magicians like to pick and choose which cheap knock-offs they will buy. I do intend to be more careful, but I also contend that I can buy silk hankies from whomever I wish, if I own the routine. If Penguin is also including Slydini's routine, then that is a cause for concern, and maybe in retrospect, I should have investigated.

But this really angers me. Penguin should have just sold the silks and not used Slydini’s name. They should have offered to also sell the books or Malone’s DVD along with the silks. Maybe they could have included an instructional video on basic knot tying with the book sale, and if they had done that, I could have bought the silks in good conscience. I haven’t even looked at the instructional video closely. Grrrrrr.

Maybe I will boycott.

Do I seem schizophrenic to you?

Posted: Aug 22, 2004 2:43pm

-----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------

On 2004-08-22 10:57, Tom Cutts wrote:
Chris,

You have read about the issues of Penguin on this board, but you bought the cheap silks anyway because they were cheap. You tell us basically "I don't know what is going on" but you ignore those who do know and just do what is cheaper for you. You are questioning about Penguin, so clearly you have concerns.

Your actions have spoken for you.

Tell us now, you have the instructions for Penguin's product. Whose routine is it?

Cheers,

Tom


----------------------------------------------------



What evidence do you have that I ignored those who know, just so I could buy cheaper? You are judging me without knowing me. Be careful about telling me what I am "basically" saying. No one can judge the routine that Penguin sells until they buy the routine or they talk to someone who has. But that person, someone who has bought the silks, is wrong, right? Are they wrong for buying the silks, not realizing or caring that it also included a routine, like me? Or are they wrong for trying to buy the Slydini routine cheap, which I did not do?

I simply said that I do not own Slydini's routine, therefore I can't tell you whether Penguin is selling the routine.

Have you bought the Penguin silks. If not, whose advise did you take? Someone's advise who has bought the Penguin silks, or someone's advise who has not.

I will ask again. If I am to be accepted into this magical fraternity, who is allowed to trade me silks for my hard earned cash? Is Palmer Magic the only one?
Chris
emyers99
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I have the Penguin silks. Got them as part of their free bonus item giveway for a $50 order. I have liked the routine in the past but have never bothered to order it mainly because of the price. Since it was free, I couldn't pass it up. I was looking for a few non card routines to add to the act.

Having never seen the silks before, I guess I can't comment on how they compare to the original silks. I can say that they do what is promised. The orange thread in the seam is very easy to spot. Not sure how durable they will be. I guess time will tell. My only concern is that they are white and I'm guessing that means they will get dirty faster than say Steve Draun's red silks. Not sure how to clean them.

As for the routine, it was ok. I saw Rocco do the Slydini routine a while back but can't remember it. I also saw Bill Malone's routine but likewise can't remember it. The Penguin routine is basically three phases which you can see on the site. I don't like the third phase where the knots split, but that's just me. I like Steve Draun's routine a lot because of the various displays where he and the spectator are yanking on the silks when tied. I might pick that routine up. All in all, the Penguin routine is ok but as a newbie to this routine, I would like more detail in a better setting (a studio instead of on the street like in the Penguin video). I seem to remember Malone going into great detail about what to do and what never to do and how to get around problems that might arise. As a new learner of this routine, that is info that I think is critical.

All in all, the Penguin silks are as promised and in all honesty, I believe the price is right and more in line with what the silks should cost.
Rob Johnston
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I checked with L&L and they have the copyrights to Slydini's books, routines, etc for these silks. And the silks themselves.

They did NOT sell them to Penguin.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
Bob Sanders
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Real Slydini silks from Slydini did not come with an orange thread. It was tan.

Bob
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chrisrkline
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L&L can't hold copyrights on the silks, only the name as attached (or maybe that's a trademark.) They might hold patents on them. But what about Palmer Magic?

Oh, well, Penguin was clearly wrong in their naming of the silks, and probably wrong on the routine.

But I still maintain that, in general, I can buy any silks I want (you will all have to forgive me for buying them from Penguin Smile ).

But in retrospect, I will think twice before I buy something like this from Penguin.
Chris
emyers99
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I'm a lawyer and could go into a long boring essay on copyrights and trademarks but I'd rather watch Ben Stein do the Six Card Repeat over and over .... Smile

Bottom line, I'm sure Penguin may have "borrowed" the Slydini name, and maybe the routine (I haven't seen the original so can't comment here). I highly doubt there is a patent on the silks and it would probably be difficult to protect the routine as well.

Bottom line, it's probably just a knock-off but I got it free so I'm using it.
RyanH
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They changed the name to sly silks.
Dave V
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This was written by one of our members on a different topic:
Quote:
On 2004-08-24 15:41, MRD Friday wrote:
It's interesting how magicians' verbage is shifting to describe the action of ripping off someone else's creation. The verb is "to penguin."


I've only seen Maxwell from a distance at a magic meeting. I was hoping my friend wouldn't drag me over for an introduction because I'm not sure I could say "Nice to meet you" while biting my tongue.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
BradleyNott
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"I'm not sure I could say "Nice to meet you" while biting my tongue."

That is so funny!

I think that no matter how many bad versions are produced of the standards in magic, good magicians will always shine over "tricksters"

I am afraid that Penguin, while helping many people get started in magic and keep the fascination, helps more people become mere "tricksters" than encouragement to become magicians with solid foundations.

Nothing is Easy to Master...nothing.
If you were a hotdog, and you were starving...would you eat yourself? I know I would!
emyers99
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I've been working with these silks for a while now. I ran into some problems with the instructions on the Penguin video so I watched Rocco's explanation of Slydini's handling on the IMS dvds. Rocco's handling is really smooth and his "release" move is explained in good detail and is great.

The problem is that his routine as well as several other ones that I have seen involve spectators tying multiple knots and then you and the spectator tug on the ends of the silks to prove they are tight. I have tried and tried and I cannot get this to work with the penguin silks, especially if you tug on the ends. I can get to the point where I tie the initial knot and then the spectator ties one knot on top. That works fine as long as you don't tug on the ends of the silk, but after those initial knots, any others tied on top will not work.

I'll keep working at it, but I'm baffled up to this point.
Thomas Walter
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emyers99 wrote:
Quote:
...involve spectators tying multiple knots and then you and the spectator tug on the ends of the silks to prove they are tight. I have tried and tried and I cannot get this to work with the penguin silks...

I am not surprised! The Penguin instructions for this is a 9 minutes downloadable wmv-movie file and you can not in my opinion expect to learn this great classic of magic this way!
And by the way, the "silks" that you get from Penguin works alright, even if the spectator ties knots on top of your own. I know, I tried it out. A friend of mine got the Slydini... eh Sly silks and access to the instruction video clip as a free bonus.
How did I manage? Easy!
I am a lucky owner of The Slydini book, written by Lewis Ganson and bought by me from Supreme in the early 70:s I just read the text, 14 pages with compact text in tiny fonts, and followed the photographs on nine more full picture pages. How many photographs? Hold on to your hats:69; yes sixtynine!
It took me more than 9 minutes.

(Seriously I learned the routine from this book many years ago and in my opinion it is not easy to learn it from what I saw in the Penguin video clip.)

My point is that the serious magic student who is new to this effect and who really understand the potential of this, goes out and search for the good and original stuff to be sure to get it right!
The rest play with it for a while, toss it away, and we, the good guys Smile are the few who really perform this great mystery in an, I hope, entertaining manner!
emyers99
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I agree about the Penguin video. That's why I went out and watched Rocco's perform and explain it. It still didn't work. I guess I will shell out for the L&L kit with the book .
Daniel Faith
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Your tugging on the wrong ends and it's not breaking loose the knot.
Pay attention to the thread.
Also note wheather the person tied a square or granny knot.
Daniel Faith
emyers99
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Believe me, I'm pulling on the right ends. The penguin video did not explain the difference between a square and granny knot. That might be the problem.
Bob Sanders
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Emyers99,

The wrong knot will wreck the train! No Grannies allowed!

Scheme!

Bob
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Thomas Walter
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The last posts make it all clear:
The Penguin version is not the Slydini routine. If it was, there should not be any problems with the knots made by a spectator, granny or square.

But once again, I am lucky to have the original book.

By the way, it doesn't matter which knot the spectator makes as long as you have done the knot upsetting business before he/she ties his her knot/knots.
And you pull on the right ends.
Jason Fleming
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The Penguin silks are nice white silks. You certainly *can* do the routine with them. They are not made from parachute nylon. They feel like they could last for maybe a couple of years with regular use.

The Palmer Magic "silks" are indeed parachute nylon and are obviously less likely to run, bunch, or become maimed by curious spectators. They feel like they could last for fifty years with care. Comparing the two side-by-side yields obvious differences in feel.

I know, Palmer's set is much more expensive. But you do get what you pay for. That being said, I obviously paid for both.
Danny Hustle
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Wow,

I just found this thread and have had a GREAT laugh.

Tony Slydini was a GREAT magician, the best.

Mr. Slydini did not "invent" this trick, as a matter of fact his version is so suited to HIS physical personality most people would look like idiots attempting to duplicate it.

That being said, you might want to check out the routine that inspired Mr. Slydyni. A routine created by one of the greatest buskers the world had ever known, and magic historians have completely forgotten. A wild mannered English gentleman by the name of Charlie Edwards. The routine can be found in Lewis Ganson's Routined Manipulation Finale on page 83 under "Charlie Edward's Dissolving Knots".

For contemporary performers in my opinion this routine is far Superior to Mr. Slydini's. The reason being, we are not Slydini. Mr. Edwards had more of a natural performing style. Where Mr. Slydini's physical style was natural for Mr. Slydini, most of us mere mortals can not sell the physical gesticulations.

If you had this book on your shelf and didn't know about this trick in it I am required to say, "Shame on you!" courtesy of Mr. Mark Lewis. He pointed the routine out to me about a year ago and I felt like a complete idiot. I had the book on my bookshelf and had never seen the routine because I had no idea who "Charlie Edwards" was. So, shame on me too, dropped from a great height.

For the clincher do you all know that the Slydini paper balls trick was invented by Blackstone Sr.?

It is amazing how the history gets re-written. About a year ago I read a post about Michael Ammar's Triumph trick.

Yeesh....

Best,

Dan-
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"MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm
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mplegare
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... for that matter, you might want to check out Ron Bauer's "Left Handed Handkerchief" booklet for a significantly easier to tie and less suspicious-looking s**p k**t as part of his handling of Charlie Miller's "Seven Cornered Hank". It works brilliantly for suddenly dissolving knots.


And of course, op cit Tarbell (which volume again?) for dissolving knots etc.
Matthew Legare aka Tobias the Adequate! - http://www.adequateblog.today.com - you know you want to.
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