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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Can the mental image of a coin be moved? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jonathan Townsend
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Re: As we all know, the mental image of a coin can be seen in the mind of a spectator.

I guess this means Mickey can see into spectator's minds.

Or perhaps he projects the image there. Which might explain why his coin vanish looks so good.

I sure would like to be have that ability. To look into their minds and see the coins. Maybe even to do spellbound with the image in their minds.

I can imagine a coin well enough to handle nothing as if it were a coin. That will have to do for now.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mystre71
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RE: I guess this means Mickey can see into spectator's minds.


Pretty close, almost scary Smile



Best
Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
Clayman
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I remember years ago seeing "Slydini" on the Dick Cavet show (in black & white, that's how long ago) doing his coin routines and cigarettes restoration. I had know idea of "imp passes" and such at the time and I can tell you my thoughts as a layman as though it where yesterday. During his "coins to the glass" he took a coin in his left fingers and moved it at a little bit above his eye level (seated) to the left, and every one watching saw a silver dollar in his fingers moving to the left and then disolving in the air. I know that this type of "mental move" is possible because I saw it. To master it is another story.
"A flash of silvery light ..and it was gone."
Pete Biro
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Werner... Interesting that you REALIZE what Goshman did with the sponge balls... using the left hand to "back toss" -- Albert told me that was his big secret and what fooled magicians.

You are very observant.

I use the Goshman toss pass all of the time... it is really a magical pass and fun to do.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
harris
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Seeing Mr. Goshman back in 76 was an eye opener.

I knew close to nothing about coin magic.(and magic in general).

Today I know less.

It was incredible. I would love to have a video of my eyes and reactions. I still go wow just thinking about the experience.

As someone once said, I am not young enough to know everything.

Be safe and creative.

Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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DVA
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Oscar Wilde.
Daegs
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I just wanted to say I recieved Mickey's (new)tape, and it is excellent as always!

The touches he has added are very nice, and it seems to move the SUV from a "put" to a "take". I am not a coin guy so I don't really know the significance of a put and a take, but either way the vanishes look REALLY good.

I've shown selected parts of the tape to laymen and they are definatly entertained and fooled, very badly.

Can't wait for the SUV teach-in to be released, I'd really like to know how you could pop a coin from fingertip to fingerpalm instantly with no movement!!!
ASKuiper
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Now to throw some fuel on the fire. Except for the references to Goshman and maybe another one or two submissions I think the premise of moving the spectators "image" of the coin is flawed and won't work.

Why? There is a big difference between what the spectator has actually seen (thereby causing a mental image) and where the spectator BELIEVES the coin (or other small object) to be. Two totally different things.

In Mickey's routine, once the coin is "taken" into the left hand, the mental image of it being in the right hand is cancelled. According to the spectator, the coin is NOW in the left hand. They don't need to see it 'cause they DID see it in the right hand and now it's not there. Assumption? It's in the left.

Since you can't move the "image" of the coin, you CAN alter where the spectator BELIEVES it to be. Placing your left hand in your pocket and then showing it empty. The spectator, following the same thought processes as above (altho' they haven't actually seen the coin in the left hand) will reach the same conclusion: "I don't see it in the left so it's in the pocket."

All you've changed is where the spec BELIEVES the coin to be. Who knows....maybe that's enough. But actually moving the "image" of the coin isn't going to fly.

Adrian
Jonathan Townsend
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I agree with your approach, though not your conclusions.

If you can demonstrate that, with cues, the coins will move where and as imagined, you can train the audience to move their expectations according to magical rules. While not the same as DIRECTLY changing the properties of their mental model of the world, it is quite close. One school of thought calls this pacing and leading. Where the pacing takes place while you verify their expectations, and the leading happens when you show that their expectations will follow new or imposed rules.

In Mickey's case, he puts the coin in his left hand, and shows you the coin there a few times. This is the pacing of your expectations. Later he directs the coin to move in magical ways by leading your expectations. He displays the coin using consistent gestures.

Can you say 'Pavlov'? Arf!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mystre71
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RE: In Mickey's routine, once the coin is "taken" into the left hand, the mental image of it being in the right hand is cancelled. According to the spectator, the coin is NOW in the left hand. They don't need to see it 'cause they DID see it in the right hand and now it's not there. Assumption? It's in the left.


From watching Mickey's new tape, the coin (Or image of the coin) is last seen in the left hand.

Hope this helps,

Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
Daegs
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Quote:
Why? There is a big difference between what the spectator has actually seen (thereby causing a mental image) and where the spectator BELIEVES the coin (or other small object) to be. Two totally different things.



Just a note, but there is a third option: What the spectator *thinks* he actually see's.

Most of it is subtlties and patter misdirection, but you *can* definatly make someone swear they saw a coin where it wasn't.

My favorite example of this is a clean coin vanish, I believe it is a Slydini thing, but basically you do a bit of acting after the coin is vanishes, and spectators will swear 2 seconds later that they actually saw the coin in your hand. Not "they believed it was there" but "they swore they saw the coin there".

This can also be acomplished different wants, but its mostly subtlties that most performers will never get to the point of, but done correctly you can make spectators believe things that never happened, and they will never question their memory.
Richard Lucas
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Quote:
On 2004-08-25 17:34, Daegs wrote:
I just wanted to say I recieved Mickey's (new)tape, and it is excellent as always!



How did you get his tape? I asked for him to notify me when he origianlly proffered it and have not heard a word since despite several pokings for the preview he promised. Where can I obtain the tape/DVD?
"The only difference between a Card Cheat and a Magician is that the Magician shows off.".......... Jay Ose 1965



Dicklucas
ASKuiper
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Well....until I can see Mickey's routine, I'll not go any further. BUT....for a spectator to MENTALLY see an image of a coin in an empty hand 2 or 3 times is beyond what I'll buy on any given day.

Is the DVD available? If so, how can one obtain a copy?

Adrian
Jonathan Townsend
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You can send a PM to Mickey. He's been sending tapes to people. There are a few computer clips of him in action you can get, IF you have file sharing via MSMessenger or your email can handle large files.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Doug Peters
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Hi Richard,

No complaints toward Mickey (sending videos around for free is pretty generous), but I'm another who would love to see the gentleman work but can only salivate over the conversation.

If someone wouldn't mind, I'd love to receive a clip of Mickey performing:
doug-dot-peters-at-gmail-dot-com

thanks, Doug
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
Richard Lucas
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Well, I guess I'm just having bad luck I've asked but no response. Maybe he'll reply when he is ready to sell.

Anyone know if he will be at the TAOM Convention in Houston in Sept.?? Its supposed to be as large as any in the country. This will be my 1st convention.
"The only difference between a Card Cheat and a Magician is that the Magician shows off.".......... Jay Ose 1965



Dicklucas
Bill Palmer
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I have a double advantage on most of you here, other than Vinny. I have actually seen the tape, and I have seen Mickey perform this live.

He has added a couple of touches to both the retention vanish and the take vanish, which has a bit in common with the Ramsay vanish. These touches serve to give the spectator a persistent image of the coin in the hand that is supposed to have it, and convince them subtly that the coin cannot be anywhere else.

Seeing the way Mickey arrived at his conclusions is art in itself.

He spent considerable time studying the spectators' responses to his vanishes, both before and after he made the "big discoveries."

I can't say much more at this time. I'm busy trying to find certain references that will help all of us later.

I'll say this. It is truly revolutionary and convincing. You should have seen the look on Johnny Thompson's face when he watched Mickey do a vanish of three (count 'em -- 3) silver dollars.
"The Swatter"

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Jonathan Townsend
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Till you can decide WHOSE MENTAL IMAGE you want to manipulate, the question is ill formed.

You can manipulate people's expectations. You can train them to expect to see certain things when you do certain things. In real time, there are attention management issues involved in suggesting the presence or motion of an object, in this case a coin.

It is very important to notice the difference between what is natural and what is presented.

The keys, still missing, are methods to associate their expectations and their perceptions. More on this after the party, when the dust has settled.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
MICKEY SILVER
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I've come to realize through my experience in coin magic, that the power of visualization,is powerful!
In my opinion, the Mental Image of a coin can be moved because our eyes are not cameras that exactly record everything that passes in front of them.
I believe, when the spectator looks at a coin in my right hand fingertips, then I take it (covering the coin) with the fingertips of the left hand, a mental image is retained at that very point where the coin was covered , regardless of the left hand insinuating that it is holding the coin a foot and a half away. ...So now! when I show the coin in between the left fingertips.....for just a second or two...the spectator believes the coin itself was moved from my right hand fingertips to my left hand fingertips, where it remains......"When in fact" each time the coin is shown, it is really the mental image that is lastly retained in their mind..." NOT THE COIN"
I totally believe when the spectator looks at a coin in the Magician's hands (using these mechanics) being taken from one hand to the other, they are not actually seeing the coin transfer perfectly reflected off some mirror in their brain. What they are seeing in their mind's eye is their brain's "REASSEMBLED IMAGE " of that coin transfer.

I understand this may sound confusing...." HOWEVER"..it works fantastic on a spectator with no knowledge of Magic and its sleights.
If we as Magicians can learn to execute these machanics in this manner......we will create illusions in the minds of our spectators , they will perceive this to be as close to pure magic as possible.

Thanks For Reading,

Mickey
Clarioneer
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Mickey,

So we maybe should redefine the books - rename the retension vanish a Retension Put and then call this a Retension Take Smile
catch you later

Clarioneer
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