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PMVIVA
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Hello Everybody, I was wondering if anyone of you guys could help me with this stuff of moves, I was looking for flourishes to do with coins and I ended up in a webpage, wich adress is this:

http://members.iweb.net.au/%7Ekith/juggl......in_f.htm

But I couldn't find the flourish I was looking for, I think Is called the Five coins Star opening, is like this:
You have a stack of five cons grabbed between the two hands, now you open your fingers, and you end up with a coing held between each pair of fingers, lets say, with a coing grabbed between the two pinkies,a coin held between the two ring fingers, etc.

Anyone of you could tell me where in the net I can find that flourish explained, or where I can find it in a book or video.

Thak you very much and sorry for my poor English
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Eric Evans
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The coin flourish you're looking for was originated by Manuel, Master of the Mighty Dollar -- it's the Manuel Coin Star. I believe you can find it on videoon one of Jeff McBride's tapes. In print, it is to be found somewhere in the body of work of Dai Vernon's (not sure where), and Henry Hay mentions it in his Amatuer Magicians Handbook. I'm not sure that anyone knows how Manuel performed it exactly, perhaps someone more knowledgeable could help out here.

And I thought your English was very good -- much better than my Spanish will ever be.
PMVIVA
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I saw the flourish for first time In a Fred Kaps routine, he did it with Jumbo coins, it was perfect, I saw him producing and producing Jumbo coins, and then he took them in their hands and then he made this flourish and let the coins fell out of his fingers into a kind of transparent box.

A few months ago I saw this flourish made with half dollar coins, and It was great too.


Cheers

MAGO68
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Lance Pierce
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My memory may be faulty, but I also seem to remember it being attributed at one point to Tommy Downs. Vernon used it in his routine with a champagne glass, which is in one of the Vernon Chronicles.


TCR
Eric Evans
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Ten Card,

Downs' Coin Star was performed with one hand and you can find a description of it in Greater Magic as well as a partial description in Bobo.

Manuel's Coin Star was performed with two hands, palms facing one another. The hands were held vertically whereas with Downs' the hand was held more horizontally.

I've given Manuel's considerable work and as yet, it is in a very unsatisfactory state. I might mention that there is no one that I'm aware of that performs or has performed the Manuel Coin Star the way that he did, namely forming the Star, then with a downward and upward movement of the hands, the coins vanished. Only to reappear a moment later back between the fingers.

Again, to my knowledge, no one has ever been able to duplicate that aspect of his Coin Star, the vanish and recovery. Everyone seems to content themselves with the lone flourish, something that to me isn't all that impressive as a stand-alone.
Chris S
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Seeing Fred Kaps perform the flourish with jumbos must have been a sight indeed! I had heard that he did something of the sort, but I have not been lucky enough to see it as yet.

I have to admit the first time I ever saw anybody do the Manuel coin star, it was at the beginning of Curtis Kam's 'Palms of Steel', but it was unfortunately only part if the introductory montage - you know the type, lots of funky music playing as the performer basically shows some of the cooler, more visual stuff off. It looked amazing,he has a really smooth acquitment before the final display and he moves very quickly (but not too quickly). I was so taken by the pretty display that I actually raised the question on the kjmagicboard and was lucky enough to have Curtis respond to it. There was one aspect of the acquitment that I could not deconstruct. In his hands it looks wonderful and with a few hours put into the flourish itself, you can get a really nice result. It does not take nearly as much time as the roll-down to master and I guess to laypeople it would be just as impressive (mind you I have always been frustrated at the lack of interest laypeople have in the rolldown when compared with the 'humble' coinroll).

My mind is bending into a pretzel just trying to work out how Manuel would have been able to do his effect where they vanish and then reappear. It strikes me that much of the 'Master of the Almighty Dollar's (is that tag right?) work has gone largely unnoticed. Are there any sources you could recommend Eric?

I believe the flourish is also in the Tarbell series somewhere (number 7???).

Hopefully Curtis will respond to this thread with some more insights.
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Eric Evans
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Hi Chris,

Unfortunately there is very little definitive information on any of Manuel's work that I'm aware of. Whereas much of Alan Shaw's work, thankfully, was documented by Buckley, to my knowledge, there is nothing of the like for Manuel.

Mystic Craig, I believe, filmed Manuel, the original of which is in the keeping of the Academy of Magical Arts -- "keeping" being the operative portion of that phrase. They've also sat on films of Buckley and many others until the film itself has deteriorated practically to the point of uselessness. Mystic Craig I'm afraid would be sadly disappointed that his films ended up in the private collection of an elite few (who are not making use of them), and not made available to magicians everwhere as he had intended. Maybe someday, if there is enough clamor and the Academy sees the potential dollars which will line their pockets, they'll transfer some meaningful artist's onto video for us undeserving peons. (Sorry Chris, I can't help but vent some resentment about how the past Masters have been treated. By keeping magicians today, ignorant of what has been accomplished in the past, present "masters" are better than they would otherwise appear).

Most of what little I know of Manuel was related to me by Jim Cellini. Any reconstruction of Manuel's techniques is based upon the little film that exists of him. At least that was the source for Jim's own observations and as Jim knows as much or more about Manuel than anyone else I've known or read, including a more refined and exacting technique for the Star in question, that I've subsequently become disappointed with the descriptions given elsewhere.

And upon consulting Water's in his encyclopedia to make sure -- the tag line was "Master of the Mighty Dollar."
Lance Pierce
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Ah, my memory is faulty! Thanks, Eric.



TCR
PMVIVA
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Thank you very much for all the information you gave me, I love this forum, I'm trying to perform the flourish I mean the star opening, not the vahish and reporduction

Again Thanks

MAGO68
If you have an apple and I have an apple, when we exchange them we both have an apple. If I have an idea and you haven an idea, when we exchange them we both have two ideas.

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Eric Evans
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Ten Card,

My pleasure, I'm glad to supply what information I have, even if it is occasionally served with a heavy serving of self-indulgent, indignant, self-righteous resentment. I've always loved coin magic more than any other branch of our art and hold those who've created the wonderful dishes we satisfy our appetites with in the highest respect.

Mago68 -- good luck with the Coin Star, I'm sure it will be a wonderful addition to your repetoire.
Stephen Barney
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Jeff Mc Bride's series of three manip videos have some graet coin flourishes and David Roths coin flourish video in the expert coin magic series is great as well
Chris S
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Sounds like a real tradgedy, Eric. I guess the prestige of having the only footage of some of the old masters must be too tempting when compared with the, dare I say it, greater good of the art. Still, its all very well for me to take the moral high ground - I might very well do the same if I was one of the lucky few (ain't human nature grand)! At least getting someone to document the sleights routines and general aspects of these masters would be some sort of middle ground. Such is life, I guess.

It sounds as if your resentment is well justified. As pioneers of some of the techniques that have been 'reinvented' by todays performers, it DOES seem unjust that they should not be recognised. This could be seen as a trivial point to some, but I think that honoring the true creators is very important as well.

No worries mago68 - it is a fine forum for all sorts of questions and often germinates all sorts of interesting discussion. Good luck with the flourish!
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Curtis Kam
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Chris,

It's good to hear that you've got the star working. Let's hope the audience appreciates all your hard work! Just kidding, the reactions are generally very good. If not, probably you should throw them a tag line. (i.e. "Is ANYONE as impressed as I am by this?") Or just do it with cards. Same handling, only lots easier, no noise, and audiences like it better.

If you have my response to your inquiry, please feel free to share it with Mago. Didn't you have a video clip up somewhere?

BTW, regarding the "original use", I've never seen it either, but it's described in Sach's "Sleight-of-Hand" as sort of an amusing interlude. You know, something to do while you rest between tricks. It sounds from his offhanded description that the stunt was in pretty wide use then.

Good luck with it, Mago. If you want something else to work on, try this: Do the star with four silver coins, turn, showing the opposite sides to the audience, and dropping them into a container. As the last one falls, pop out four chinese coins into star position. I've done it with three and three, but haven't had a reson to do the 4X4 version.
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harris
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Thanks to everyone who shared this information as well as the website link.

I have been playing with the 2 hand coin star with both 4 and 5 coins. 4 is definetly easier.

I have been attempting to go from the 2 hand coin star to the "1" handed one for a through the table or body.

It is much more difficult then starting by placing them there with the other hand.

Oh well if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Hope to see some of you in October, at the Workshop in Saint Joseph, Missouri.

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Reed McClintock
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I came up with a coin flourishy thing, if your intrested, it is called seven the hard way. I have thaught about sending it to Jeff Mcbride to check out.
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Bill Mullins
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SAM has uploaded some footage of Manuel doing coin flourishes to Vimeo:

https://vimeo.com/103964162
Hare
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I've been searching for over 40 years for footage of Manuel, Master of the Mighty Dollar. Henry Hay put him right beside Tommy Downs in skill, and, after all these years, there he is. Thanks for sharing this Bill.

Someone needs to take this footage and tinker it with today's modern video editing software, and try to bring out the details of this performance. There looks to be an amazingly bold "in your face" kind of bare approach to Manuel's work.

It's a pity it's so tantalizingly fuzzy. There looks like amazing things happening there. Anyone know what year this was shot? I can hardly believe this footage actually exists.
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Michael Rubinstein
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We used to show footage of Manuel at our coin seminars. He did all the work from the Downs book. Not sure if its the same footage, might well be the same. Roth discovered an interesting unknown story about him which I think will eventually be put out by the Conjuring Arts Center.
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Hare
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Much of the material from Down's book, and even Thomas Manuel's own, rare "Thumb Gag" as shown in Hay's book! It's a whole school of the classic early 20th century coin magic from the stage packed and condensed into 1:45 minutes and handsomely performed. If only there is a clearer version out there. It's beautiful stuff.
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