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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Muscle Pass = Muscle Damage? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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CSStanton
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I heard that you can get muscle damage if you muscle pass. Where would this take place the most? Is there any way of preventing it?
-Casey
Dan Watkins
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I posted my thoughts about this in another thread which I will recopy below:

I think most of the rumors that the muscle pass will do damage to your hand are from people who cannot muscle pass so they make up excuses instead. They rather say they won't do it because it will cause massive internal hemorrhaging and hand paralysis, then just admit they can't do it.

While I don't doubt someone with arthritis or tendonitis or any "-itis" would have pain or problems with the move. If you sit around all day popping a coin out of your hand for hours and hours on end, I am sure you are doing to hurt yourself. Though you would probably hurt yourself squeezing anything for hours and hours (maybe go blind as well).

The most you ever do the muscle pass is to initially learn it. Once you learn it, you don't forget it. I can go for weeks without doing it and be able to pick up a coin pop it as high as I show in my web video.

I hurt my hands more riding my SeaDoo watercraft in rough waves than I do muscle passing a coin.
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CSStanton
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Dan, on a similar note - what can you pass? I heard dice and other objects work. Can you do dice?
Thanks for the above thread.
-Casey
Dan Watkins
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Yes you can pass other objects like dice. If you can classic palm it and squeeze the object enough to make it pop out of your hand, it can be muscle passed. Something like a ball would not work that good for example.

Coins seem to work really well as the object of choice.
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Lonnie Dilan
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It is possible to suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome, but it's not likely that doing the muscle pass will solely contribute to the problem.

CPT is often brought about by repetetive actions (doing the muscle pass over and over, typing, push ups...etc...

I would suggest that you learn some stretching techniques and some simple excersises for your hands and wrists. Cpt is brought about by lack of circulation in the wrists.

Massage your hands and shake them to keep them loose.

I have met a few magicians with carpal tunnel syndrome, but none of them blame it on the muscle pass.

Maybe it's the one handed cut instead??? We had it wrong all these years!!

quick....start a new rumor.
Dr Mage
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The muscle pass will NOT lead to any significant medical problems. It uses different muscle groups than those involved in carpal tunnel syndrome. Lonnie is on to something, though. Some of the one handed cuts certainly could contribute to carpal tunnel syndrome.

Everything in moderation. Smile
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TOBIAS
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Dan Watkins
Have you MP an Oreo cookie? This kills all watching. When doing a MP with a coin you get the people who say, strings and magnets right? I did a small show for the guy I get my coins from. He was eating cookies and some one said it is a magnet that's how you are doing it! So he came to my defence. He said he can make anything float, LOOK, at this same time he hands me his snack. I was like HMMM? OK! I did it!!! Cool, and every one freaked out. My point is it is not how hard you press the coin, It's the sweet spot in your hand.
Yes you will get a callus if you do it like all the time but it will wear off with time once your hands get use to the MP. Plus that shouldn't be the only effect you know. Well I hope? If it hurts stop...
I thought that was a no brainer?
:dance:
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Dan Watkins
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I can't say I have muscle passed baked goods before, TOBIAS with enough practice, you could become the "King of Kookies"!
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Lonnie Dilan
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Tobias....

Cookies..that's freaking cool. Never thought of that.

You could split the cookie, put one half in each hand and then muscle pass both halves so that they join in mid-air.....now that should emit some gasps.

I'm gonna buy some oreos tonight.

Tobias, I take it you hang out at the Castle?
if so, we should hook up sometime and session.
harris
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Check out other small food items.
They make great food for magical thought.

For a finale you could use a load of
the mini oreos.

On this subject a trip to a "Mr. Bulky" or other similar bulk candy store might
lead you home with some interesting props
to add to your routines and or waistline.

Harris Smile
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
Jaime Pirnie
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I've been working on the MP for a number of weeks now and so far from what I have noticed is that a calus is what -really- seems to make a difference. This is just how it is for me which may be very different from the rest of you but I'll share anways. I was trying to do it with silver dollars for a long while and could only get them to go up about 1-2 inches at most. These coins have somewhat rounded edges. The other night my wife handed me a quarter from Jamaica. She wanted to know if I could use it. Its about 4mm wider than a US half, so you get about 2mm on each side when you lay a half on top of it. The one thing that I noticed first thing when I was trying to MP it was that its edges are pretty sharp. The spot on my hand started to get sore really fast from the sharp edge. Within a half day my silver dollar is now at 4 inches. The spot on my hard is really sore, but the skin is getting tough there. I actually think I'll be getting a blister later on tonight or tomorrow.

I guess the short version for me is this.. The more hard the skin gets there, the higher the coin goes and the easyer it is to launch it. I'll post back again after a few days and let you know how high I'm up to from using this sharper edged Jamaican quarter.
-Jaime
Eric Evans
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Jaime,

As Dan has indicated, the Muscle Pass is a technique move; it has nothing to do with brute force, or callused palms. I've performed it for up to 10 shows a day, 5 days a week at times, and never did I develop a callus. On the contrary, I merely became more adept or flexible at executing it from a variety of positions -- meaning that I didn't have to have it in that "exact spot" that a callus would automatically dictate. Height suffered only when my hand became tired towards the end of the night.

I'd caution you against pushing yourself to create such a callus, hoping that that will give you greater height. Learning how to employ and contort your hand in the specific way that is unique to the move, while exerting the force necessary in an exact manner is the only way to develop the sought after height you're looking for.

More important at first, is to consciously avoid picking up bad habits along the way. Things like keeping the fingers straight when exerting the tension is difficult to do later on, if you don't strive to do so now. Another bad habit that I don't know if Dan mentions on his website or not, is not moving the hand (holding the coin) in an upward direction with a slight pushing movement. If you'll notice on Dan's website, his hand is immobile when the coin leaves it, and if that is an accurate video of him, he does it better than I've ever seen it -- my hats off to him.

Lastly, remember the admonishment that applies to practically everything we do -- "gently, gently, gently."

My apologies if I sound imperious here, but for some of us, our hands are our livelyhood and as such, we should treat them with the care they deserve and require.
Jaime Pirnie
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I understand. So far I've seen that my hand doesn't give the coin that "pop" that it needs to get up and going. The skin mearly slides off and the coin has a small jump. I'm not going to keep working on making a calus but so far having a little thicker skin there does indeed help create that pop. I'll keep at it. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
-Jaime
Dan Watkins
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Quote:
On 2002-08-15 00:26, Eric Evans wrote:
... it has nothing to do with brute force, or callused palms...

...If you'll notice on Dan's website, his hand is immobile when the coin leaves it, and if that is an accurate video of him, he does it better than I've ever seen it -- my hats off to him...



One thing I would say about the callus is that it typically creates a dryer harder part of the hand. I have found that dry hands actually help more than moist hands. I did develop a callus when I learned to muscle pass (actually two of them for different sized coins). It did eliminate the "brushburn" like pain from popping the coin, and allowed me to add more force to the pop thus increasing the height.

Today - the calluses are gone. I can still muscle pass as well if not better than when I initially learned it, so I agree the callus is not neccessary for the technique, though I did find the callus helped during my learning phase, or at least I thought it did.

Thank you for your compliment on my muscle pass video. I wasn't quite sure what you were asking regarding its accuarcy. It looks the same way off camera as it does on.

If anyone happens to be at the Las Vegas Magic Invitational next month, feel free to ask me for a live demo Smile
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Eric Evans
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Jaime,

My pleasure, glad I could help a bit.

Dan,

It's been so many years since I learned the Muscle Pass that I didn't honestly think I'd developed a callus. When I learned it with my other hand a few years ago, because my technique was down and I knew what the action was, I didn't even develop much soreness in the area that was effected.

BTW, for anyone concerned with Carpal Tunnel down the road, the Chinese have a very useful warm up as they regard the wrists and ankles gateways of energy coming into and leaving the body. It consists of clasping the hands together, interweaving the fingers. Then rolling the hands in one direction for a couple of moments, then rolling them the other direction for the same duration. It increases circulation to the hands and helps insure that the delicate wrist bones and ligaments all remain supple.
TOBIAS
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Quote:
On 2002-08-14 13:57, Lonnie Dilan wrote:
Tobias....

Cookies..that's freaking cool. Never thought of that.

You could split the cookie, put one half in each hand and then muscle pass both halves so that they join in mid-air.....now that should emit some gasps.

I'm gonna buy some oreos tonight.

Tobias, I take it you hang out at the Castle?
if so, we should hook up sometime and session.

Thanks I haven't been to the Castle, although alot of people have told me to come, and invited me, and screamed at me because I haven't. I live in Washington state, so that's kinda far to go and hang out. I session all the time with some big time guys so if you ever come up let me know.
And the point about the cookies is an idea to keep in mind.
Smile
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Brian Proctor
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I can pass rocks. Its pretty cool and impromptu. When you dont have coins around when your camping or something. Just pick up a nice small rock that you can palm.
Looks pretty tight. Smile
Brian
Dan Watkins
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Quote:
On 2002-08-16 19:29, Brian wrote:
I can pass rocks.


That must hurt.
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TheMagician
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I can pass without damage to my hand andnot have to dig it into my palm (open handed). Is this normal?
-Robert
...The Magician
Brian Proctor
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I would say so. And by the way, it does hurt sometimes to pass rocks Dan. But I try to find the smoothest on the ground. Smile Smile
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