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dfeder Regular user 126 Posts |
I know there have been discussions on holdouts elsewhere in the forums. These devices can cost anywhere from a $3 make it yourself device to hundreds of dollars. Does anyone have a favorite device they use? Can someone give me some feedback on the trabbucco holdout (I've seen it advertised but not really reviewed). And what are some of the routines you generally do with them?
Thanks much in advance - Dov |
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Yes..I do have some advice..
Forget all this stuff.. Use the time to study decent sleight of hand! The result -from the audiences point of view- is the same or rather better ! I don't doubt, one can do miracles using a hold-out but one has to think practical and not forgetting its limitations! When being very young I too played with that stuff, I made a thingy that worked by pushing a *rubberball* under my armpit, which via a tube did go to a metalpipe where a ø5 mm *insert* with a pin on it made a rather large movement outside the tube, where some gadges could get attached.. It worked and it also retrackted, but never got into practical use.. Silly stuff..I got wiser..and hopefully others will too. IIRC, even Cardini has been mentioned, he at one time did use a hold-out to do a *miracle*.. Well, in his hand, no doubt, it was a such..still I wouldn't advice to limit ones abilities to the use a such thingy.. Magic is illusion and an illusions should hasppen in the specs mind, use other means, than a mechanical device that has many drawbacks in practical performances.. It's like John Kennedy's *Flamethrower match*..what an oustanidng effect..it is incredibly great.. BUT, running around with a such device?? Yes..in a formal show one is able to use it, but it is impractical for many other venues.. I would love to be able to do it anywhere, anytime, shortsleeved in summertime..at the pub..anywhere, but that is just not possible.
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
I think the most important thing to realize is that a hold out will not make a magician out of you. It can enhance your ability, but it is not the complete solution. So, practice the standard ways and then when you are far enough along, and only you can answer that, try a hold out. See if it will help YOU, and if it does, get the one that does it best, regarless if it is cheap or pricey.
Kirk G |
magicmonkeyphoto Regular user 151 Posts |
Werner, I am not saying I totally disagree with your advice, but it seems like you are coming from the angle that anything that can't be used in daily life is no good.
That may be the case for you, or magicians that do magic for fun but not for a living. If you do magic for a living, do you bring props with you? Even in a walk-around situation at a restaurant or party, there is nothing wrong with having a few "devices" on you to add to what you already can do with sleight-of-hand. I have a lot of magic that I can do with borrowed items, so that I can perform if requested anywhere, but when I go out to a gig I bring a deck of cards, some 50 cent pieces, and many other things that I don't want to carry around every day. I don't see much difference in that and having something hooked up in your jacket that you wear for gigs. Lincoln
http://www.lincolnworld.com/products -- For high end mentalist utility devices, ideas, and props for professionals and serious hobbyists. You can follow me on Instagram @Lincolnworldmagic and on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/LincolnWorldWatchers
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Holdouts are devices that require great thought and consideration to use well. They are not substitutes for learning basic skills, presentation or how to perform. And, if you're working close-up with no barriers between you and your audience, they're almost impossible to get away with.
The problem is that if the audience feels comfortable with you at all (and in close-up situations, they should). Many have no hesitation in taking hold of your arm to look up your sleeves, in patting you down, or in opening your jacket to see what might be inside. Because of this, holdouts and topits will generally not work well. If you work close-up, but very formally and (for lack of a better word) distant, then you may be able to get away with them. If you work platform, it's even easier. Stage...no problem. In the dynamic field of spectator interaction, though, when you're right at the table with them, toe to toe and face to face, shooting lines back and forth and actually talking TO them, you may find yourself getting nailed with these devices over and over even when you're not using them. |
BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
Open Traveler wrote:
--- The problem is that if the audience feels comfortable with you at all (and in close-up situations, they should), many have no hesitation in taking hold of your arm to look up your sleeves, in patting you down, or in opening your jacket to see what might be inside. Because of this, holdouts and topits will generally not work well. --- I've worked in close-up situations for well over 20 years, and I won't hesitate to say that this is mostly nonsense. I have had requests for folks to look up my sleeves (something that can be turned into a very funny situation, if you play it correctly), but the other described situations have simply never occurred. And, yes, my audiences feel very comfortable with me. From time to time, I use a very simple holdout: magnets that are pinned to the inside of my trousers, just forward of my rear pockets on either side. An item held out in this position can be retrieved with a natural gesture, and dropped back there with little more than a shrug. One use for this device: the last phase of Dean's Box. (If you have the box, you know what I'm talking about.) Scott Alexander's video was my inspiration for the use of this device for this effect. I also have a few coin routines that I've modified by obtaining some steel-shimmed coins. I was over-using the pockets, and this makes a number of things look much cleaner. I work under stand-up, walk-around conditions, and this simple hold-out idea works well. Some careful rehearsal is required to make sure that the body movements required look natural and motivated, but I believe that many magicians have the time and patience to make simple hold-outs work well.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I have a friend that has "put in the work" with the Fitch/Kohler H.O. and believe me it is a miraculous device. You can't tell a thing and boom it is gone... boom it is back. No tells.
Wish I could afford one. However, "put in the work" means a lot of work, just like learning a series of good sleights... using the H.O. requires skill too.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Barry, I don't know why you simply write it off as nonsense, because I can tell you that it happens to me on practically a nightly basis. Perhaps people respond differently to you than me, and perhaps it's partly to do with the respective environments in which we work, but people regularly make physical contact with me. It's not uncommon at all for someone to feel my vest or my sleeves, and I've even had people reach in my vest and trouser pockets (which sets up all kinds of humorous moments). I also have to say that I regularly have people giving me hugs and handshakes as well (and the occasional kiss), so maybe I'm the kind of guy they do that to and you're not.
It's not nonsense; it's what happens to me all the time. It's my normal life experience. I just assumed that it happens to pretty much everyone else, too...but I can see that was incorrect. Perhaps your audiences are quite comfortable with you, but it seems that for some reason they're a lot more comfortable with me. |
Mediocre the Great Inner circle Rich Hurley 1062 Posts |
David Regal fooled me badly with an inexpensive hold out he describes in Constant Fooling 2. I've always meant to play around with it, particularly to fool my magician friends when vanishing the last coin in coins under the table.
Is it practical, yes and no. Fun to know about, and someday I'm sure I'll enjoy playing with it. However, for my day to day performances, I'm glad I don't have to rig my jacket with the device.
Mediocrity is greatly under rated!
-------------------------------------------- Rich Hurley aka Mediocre The Great! www.RichHurleyMagic.com |
BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
Open Traveller,
I stand corrected, sir. Clearly it's not nonsense because, as you've described, people feel that there's no problem with making regular physical contact with you, including feeling your vest and sleeves and even reaching into your pockets. You also say that because people treat you this way, they are much more 'comfortable' with you. Here I must disagree. My interpretation is that when people treat you this way, it indicates that you either have very poor control over your audience or very poor boundaries. (Or perhaps it's a combination of both.) I hate to break it to you, but your description of your audience's behavior indicates that they have little, it any, respect for you or your art. I'm perfectly happy to have audiences who are not quite as 'comfortable' with me.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
Mike Wild Inner circle NY, PA, TX, MA, FL, NC 1290 Posts |
To Barry & Open Traveler:
You both make some good points, no doubt there. My typical venues are bars, pubs, and coffee houses. In a bar environment I've found people to be a lot more touchy feely and invasive, i.e., they like to grab and touch a lot more than I, as a sober individual at the time, see as acceptable. The coffee houses are a very different environment. The light of day combined with inhabitions and common sense seem to keep even the most enthusiastic spectators, even the wired ones, at a slightly farther distance. I'd suggest that perhaps it's a venue / timing / audience thing, and maybe not a "who has better control or who the audience feels more comfortable with" thing. It's possible that environment and circumstance, in these cases, shapes the spectators' attitudes. On topic - I never use a hold out or a toppit in close up performance. I substitute with sleights, attitude, and my pockets. I don't have a problem with either, I just went a different way. Best, Mike |
Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Barry,
I can see why you think what you do. I used to work in "daylight" venues where such things didn't happen nearly as often. My main venue now is a very upscale bar. First, let me clarify that not ALL my spectators are like this. It happens just a few times a night out of hundreds of people, which is frequent enough for me to avoid things like holdouts and other devices. I don't think my audiences have little respect for me. In fact, they frequently tend to be highly complimentary and often want to spend a great amount of time later talking to me about different things (despite the fact that I sometimes don't really have the time or liberty to do so). Outside of the performance, they tend to treat me with a great deal of respect and deference. It's just that when "the game's on," the rules change a little. I also don't think it has to do as much with "lack of audience control" as you might feel. I believe that what's happening here is that I work in a way that reduces what in theater is known as "the fourth wall" that exists between the performer and the audience. Sometimes alcohol may play a part in their lesser inhibition, too, but not as much as some might assume. I constantly shake their hands, pat them lightly on the shoulders, do magic on their palms, hand them things, touch them softly on the arm, etc. Some magicians will advise to avoid this, but in fact you just have to know when NOT to do it. In reading your comments, I gather that you would regard such physical contact (such as them patting you down) as "intrusion," and it wouldn't really be welcomed by you. In some sense, the audience may pick up on that and act accordingly. I, on the other hand, fully accept and welcome it. I don't establish it or lead them into doing it; I just don't let it bother me when it happens, and I can always turn it into more laughter. So, I think we not only work in different venues, but have different attitudes toward our audiences (and perhaps different goals as to what we want to get out of the interaction). There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just asking that you don't write me off as not knowing what I'm talking about just because your experience differs. Thanks. Oh, sorry...by "daylight" venue, I didn't mean one which is literally performed in the light of day...simply one that normally doesn't extend deep into the night. Thanks... |
BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
Open Traveller,
Actually, there are quite a frew similarities in our work. I also work at night, both at a dinner theatre and in an upscale bar. The dinner theatre crowd is more reserved, but the bar crowd is definitely more 'frisky.' I also shake hands with people, touch people on the shoulders and arm, and do magic that happens in their hands. For the bar crowd, I really play down the 'challenge' aspect of my act. Instead of doing tricks, I'm really a story teller. The effects that I do are structured so that each person who helps me ends up being the hero. I sometimes set up mock conflicts, but not between me and the audience. Instead, I'll pit one audience member against another, but always in a light-hearted way. If you're doing material that might be viewed by some as a challenge, maybe that explains their behavior towards you. It's neither good nor bad; it's just a different way of approaching things.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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