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entity
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An interesting post appeared in the Pick a Card forum, where a gambler who calls himself Doc has posted a number of times. Doc has given up lots of interesting information and anecdotes, as well as advice on methods for those who want to be card cheats. Included in these posts are some links to videos of Doc's hands in action, performing crooked gambling moves, and on the videos you hear Doc's voice narrating. Also on these posts are descriptions of Doc's ethnicity, and actual times and places of games where he has cheated others.

You're all asking: "What has this got to do with Mentalism?". Stick with me, here. I do have a relevant point.

In a recent post, Doc tells a tale of a recent game where he was robbed and beaten after the game, because someone knew he was a cheat.

One person who responded to Doc's post wondered why Doc would give out so much personal information about himself, the way he looks, access to his voice on video tape, and where he is playing and cheating people. On an open forum such as this, is he not just asking for trouble, letting anyone who wants to do some research know that if they get into a game with someone who looks like Doc, sounds like Doc and handles cards the way that Doc does, he is likely to be cheated?

It made me wonder about the mentalists in this forum who want to claim genuine psychic powers. Although I personally think this is the wrong thing to do, all ethics aside, isn't it a mistake for those individuals to post on a forum such as this, using their real or performing names, often with a photo of themselves shown beside their posts that discuss methods, marketed items, etc.?

I use an assumed name for other reasons, in case you were wondering.

- entity
Alan Wright
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If someone is that dedicated, they will find the secrets to your effects anyway. Whether or not they hear it coming from you, or somebody else.
-- Alan
entity
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Alan:

My post was not about the secrets to effects. It was about those who wish to be thought of as genuine psychics. Does posting here under their real names, or with a photo, while discussing methods, marketed effects, etc., give up their pose of being genuine?

- entity
Roth
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Entity,
I may be wrong,but I don't believe you have been on this forum too many times.
I have never seen a post where someone claims to have real psychic powers. (although the possibility has been discussed)
The fact is the professional mentalists and the hobbiest here both adhere to an ethical belief that the audience is aware that what they are doing "is what being psychic would look like if someone did have these powers."
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Dave V
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Myster,

I think Entity is asking the opposite.

There is one particular episode that happened on the 'net where a performer was discussing tricks and methods right along with the rest of us. When he got a gig where his "powers" were implied to be real he tried his best to "kill" any evidence of associating with magicians and tricksters by attempting to purge his online presence so the show producers wouldn't find out he wasn't "real."
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Slim King
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I've seen a post where someone claims real psychic power.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Hypnotic Winter
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Slim King, would you be able to direct us to that post?

H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
Dave V
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Off topic, but related to the reference in the first post:

I was in a small group with Gazzo a few weeks ago. When asked who was the best real card worker today, not a magician but one who can really "get the money" in a game, he answered "Doc."
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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I don't think it matters.
I'm reminded of David Hoy helping out Bill Brewe with a crowd in his magic shop.
"won't helping me sell magic tricks hurt your psychic business, Dave?" Bill asked (paraphrased).

"Oh, no, Bill." Hoy responded, "People will believe what they want to believe."

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
Alan Wright
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Quote:
On 2004-09-26 12:44, entity wrote:
Alan:

My post was not about the secrets to effects. It was about those who wish to be thought of as genuine psychics. Does posting here under their real names, or with a photo, while discussing methods, marketed effects, etc., give up their pose of being genuine?

- entity

Yes I know. But what I meant, is that if they are that dedicated to search you up on the internet, whether or not they see your name associated with magician's on forums and such, they will still eventually find some of your secrets. I mean that if they are so focused on proving you wrong, seeing your name on a forum isn't going to matter.

So no, posting on these forums and such does no more damage to you than exposure sites and even online stores' descriptions.
-- Alan
entity
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Alan:

I think yur statement that if someone looks on the internet <they will still eventually find some of your secrets> is true I some cases, but not all.

Many performers who call themselves Psychics don't use run of the mill marketed effects that are easily found on the internet.

Although I don't pretend to by a psychic, I do a full evening mentalism show in theatres, and the only thing that remotely resembles a dealer item or something easily found on the internet is my presentation of PK Touches. Even then, it is different enough from the original manuscript to make it difficult for someone else to relate the two.

Performers such as Dunninger, Kreskin and Geller would avoid fraternizing with Magicians for fear of people connecting the dots and figuring out that they might be tricksters as well. I doubt that you'll ever see Kreskin or Geller posting here, for just that reason.

- entity
Slim King
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What if Johnathan (sp) Edward posted here?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Alan Wright
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Quote:
On 2004-09-26 19:34, entity wrote:
Alan:

I think yur statement that if someone looks on the internet <they will still eventually find some of your secrets> is true I some cases, but not all.

Many performers who call themselves Psychics don't use run of the mill marketed effects that are easily found on the internet.

Although I don't pretend to by a psychic, I do a full evening mentalism show in theatres, and the only thing that remotely resembles a dealer item or something easily found on the internet is my presentation of PK Touches. Even then, it is different enough from the original manuscript to make it difficult for someone else to relate the two.

Performers such as Dunninger, Kreskin and Geller would avoid fraternizing with Magicians for fear of people connecting the dots and figuring out that they might be tricksters as well. I doubt that you'll ever see Kreskin or Geller posting here, for just that reason.

- entity






That's true. Guess I wasn't thinking that through as well as I should've.

In that case, a laymen seeing the performer's name on this forum, for example, would definately confirm any doubts the layman had about the performer's psychic abilities. Especially if they read a few of their posts.
-- Alan
rgranville
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I think there are a few important differences between card cheats posting on forums (like this one) and pseudo-psychics claiming to have real powers. People who suspect they've been cheated at cards have both strong financial and self-esteem motives for finding the cheats and exacting revenge. Most people who go to psychics either already want to believe or at least want to be entertained. Not only will they not believe they've been cheated, they'll resist evidence to that effect until it is beyond overwhelming. While some psychics may be traceable to postings in various forums, their clients are unlikely to go looking for them trying to gather evidence of trickery.

:cucumber:
MentaThought
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Quote:
On 2004-09-26 19:34, entity wrote:
Performers such as Dunninger, Kreskin and Geller would avoid fraternizing with Magicians for fear of people connecting the dots and figuring out that they might be tricksters as well. I doubt that you'll ever see Kreskin or Geller posting here, for just that reason.


You might be interested to know that Dunninger (like his torch bearer, Kreskin) was a well-known magician and also an escape artist before focusing on mentalism. He was a colleague/mostly-friendly competitor of Houdini.
During his career as a mentalist he also authored books on magic such as his wonderful "Dunninger's Encyclopedia of Magic."
"A good mentalist ... will teach you a miracle because he understands the subtleties ..." -- Banachek

"If this works it'll be BEAUTIFUL!" - The Amazing Kreskin on a stunning effect he performed on his 1970s television series (PS: it worked)
owenscott
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"What if Johnathan (sp) Edward posted here?"

Banachek would probabley give him a mental thrashing ... term "scum of the earth" rings a bell when speaking with Banachek about him.
entity
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Mentathought:

While it is true that Dunninger (as do most Mentalists) started as a Magician, and his show included a number of Magic tricks, he did avoid most public association with Magicians. He would call magic shops and ask them to open up for him after closing so that the public wouldn't see him there.

There is some speculation that his relationship with Houdini was not as close as he made out in the press.

- entity
Bambaladam
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If john edward posted here and was scared off by people's ignorance and hatred, much knowledge would be lost.

I don't use my real name here, for the very reasons named above.

I think it makes much sense even for magicians to keep their real names off this forum. If nothing else it prevents people getting the idea there are 14822 other people to contact for their function.

/Bamba
David de Leon
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And I thought Bamba was your real name!
Osiris
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Wow! So much material to cover and such little time...

Quote:
It made me wonder about the mentalists in this forum who want to claim genuine psychic powers. Although I personally think this is the wrong thing to do, all ethics aside, isn't it a mistake for those individuals to post on a forum such as this, using their real or performing names, often with a photo of themselves shown beside their posts that discuss methods, marketed items, etc.?


There have been situations similar to this here and elsewhere. I know, because I've been the brunt of the fall out!

The "trick" to being a mentalist is to trod that very thin line between the realm of the shut-eye and that of the entertainer -- as John Riggs might say, "We're honest charlatans." As such some of us travel much closer to that line in the sand than others. In fact, Cassidy and others have pointed out several times, that the most successful "Mentalists" on earth don't associate with magic or magicians and do bear the title of being a Telepath, Clairvoyant, etc.

Truth is, walking this tight rope is a matter of personal conviction, integrity and honesty or, as it may be seen "morality." Outside of that I don't believe there any level of low someone like myself won't stoop to in "pulling one off". Be it taking credit for stopping someone's watch or allow folks to assume things that go a bit beyond the reality of the moment. On the other hand, I will not use my skills as a means by which to con or manipulate folks out of their hard earned cash for the sake of creating the First Church of Craig. I grew up around that kind of charlatanism and don't want any part of it (traveling with tent revivals, etc.)

As to John Edward showing up here... I doubt Banachek would give him a toungue lashing. That's just not how Steve operates -- he's got some class as well as the willingness to allow people their beliefs. Outside the public venue, he may PM John and ask him "What's up?" But to flame someone within this kind of venue, I believe we'd see far more "know it alls" that read prejudiced material make an arse of themselves via such antics. That seems to be the more typical route of the matter.

I can tell you one thing for certain. In speaking with John Edward I was very impressed and given the extent of my education in this field, I'd have to say he has something going for him that's not as readily explained as many would wish. Too, it may interest you to know that his rates are comparitively low, far beneath those charged by others who are virtually "unknown" -- pedators, as I refer to them. Of which I know for fact John Edward is not.

Yes, there are charlatans in our world. If that upsets you then stop picking on the little old ladies (and old crusty farts like me) that do Readings in a Coffeehouse and start going after the real crooks.

Oh! Like Bob Cassidy, John Riggs, Blair Robertson and a plethora of others, I too claim to be a Psychic. I do so for very legit reasons -- I am aware of and "see" things most do not. It is a skill that can be cultivated over time by anyone. It is not some boogieman filled realm for the delusional, but an actual art and science fo which a very small portion has come into the demension of the magic buff.

Now that I've opened the can of worms, let's see if we can't keep the attacks and ridicule somewhat civil and to the point.
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