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Danny Diamond Inner circle Connecticut 1400 Posts |
I apologize in advance for the long post ahead, but I'd appreciate your thoughts. Here is my situation...
There is a local party store that offers themed parties for kids. Most of their parties take place in the actual store. Anyway, about 6 months ago, I approached the owner, let's call her Jane, about offering my kid's shows through her store. I verbally agreed to be their "resident magician", to be available for them when they had requests for magic parties. I have done a few parties for the Jane at her shop since then, just being paid my usual rate that I charge for parties that I book on my own. My rate runs between $110-$150 for a show. I have always collected the money from Jane, and all was well... OK, here is the dilemna. Jane called me up and said that she had a woman who wanted me to do a show for her kid's birthday, but the woman wanted it done at her house, as opposed to Jane's store where I usually perform. So far, no big deal. Then Jane says I need to call the woman to go over the details, but that when I call, I am to tell her that the cost is $200 for the show, and that the woman needs to bring a $90 downpayment to Jane's store. Jane says to me, that I can keep the difference. So basically, Jane is now taking on the role of a booking agent, making $90 to my $110. To top it all off, Jane tells me that she will send me business cards to leave with the woman, as opposed to me leaving my own business cards and getting future gigs from this party on my own. Naturally, Jane wants future gigs booked through her, so that she can take a piece of the profits, but I want people to remember Danny Diamond and my show, not Jane's store. Another thing that sticks in my mind, is the reason she agreed to have me be the magician for her in the first place. She told me that the last guy was promoting himself after shows, handing out his cards and information, and that is why she got rid of him and offered me the role. I am somewhat torn now. I feel like I am getting a raw deal here. I am only a part-time performer, so I do not even do any real advertising other than flyers and word of mouth from past parties. Because I do not advertise, I do appreciate getting a gig through Jane, but I can't help but question the situation. I mean, the bottom line is...I am still going to receive the same amount of cash for my show as I normally do on a gig that I book myself. But the difference is, Jane upped my rate by nearly double, and is keeping the difference. What percentage do agents generally take? I can't tell if I should appreciate the gigs I would normally not be getting, and let Jane take her 40% booking fee, or if I should not accept this situation and break ties with Jane. Any advice?
You don't drown by falling in the water;
you drown by staying there. - Edwin Louis Cole |
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
I would not give Jane 40%, but explain to her that I am happy to pay a 20-25% commission to any agent who represents me and will refer all spin-off work back through the agency.
Furthermore, I would expect Jane to call the woman back to confirm, send out the confirming letter, and collect the deposit. Make it clear up front what terms are acceptable to you. It sounds like you are not comfortable with this arrangement, so don't agree to something that sets a precedent for future business dealings. |
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Mike Robbins Elite user Anchorage, Alaska 447 Posts |
I've only worked through an agent twice. It is, however, expected that any business you get from an "agent-booked" event be funneled through the agent. In that respect, giving out her cards instead of your own is not unheard of.
Only you can determine whether you're comfortable with the 40% agent's fee. As you've stated, you don't really market and you are getting the fee you want. I did two shows for an out of state (and country) agent. I told them what my fee was. They talked me down a small amount by saying they had already agreed upon a price. So I did it. The next time, they did it again, but not by as much. I told them that I would no longer work for anything less than my fee. The third time they called and tried to talk me down, I told them "No." They never called back. I'm sure I know who they got in my area to do their cheap shows and I have no regrets. There is a local guy who works as a clown. He also tries to book other talent. I've heard from a few of my magician friends that they don't get the fee they want through him. This last year he finally emailed me and asked me my rates. I simply told him that I work directly with my customers and do not work through agents. That's my choice and I don't regret it. Mike
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
Shakespeare |
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
An agent should only get about 20%, and then needs to do everything to close the deal -- including contracts. 40% is way out of line. And this won't stay a secret. It's only a matter of time before your regular fee gets back to this lady, and it'll hurt the store owner, not you. Explain it to her.
On the flip side, she may ask you for a % on future shows in her store. And, to me it sounds like it might be a good deal. But I would establish a "finder's fee" that is a lower % than an agent's fee. |
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kenscott Inner circle 1869 Posts |
Agree she is getting way to much for her part of the job. 2nd I don't mean this in bad way but is your show right now worth the 200.00 or is worth 110.00?
Ken |
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Dali New user 25 Posts |
The short answer? Yes, you are being ripped off, although it's possible Jane doesn't realize she's out of line.
I am a professional musician and deal with agents and their ilk all the time. 40% is borderline criminal, and I've never, EVER heard of an agent taking that kind of fee. The standard maximum is 20%, and Starrpower is right, for a 20% commission, the agent should handle all aspects of the booking, contracts, scheduling, directions to the venue, etc. Many agents take a smaller commission, but the onus is on them to get you even more work, as the more bookings they make, the more money they get. Some agents ask for a small retainer for various things in their business overhead that relate to you, like postage, business cards, web presence, etc. This is all negotiable - and should be negotiated up front before any bookings are done. Stand up for yourself, you'll be much better off if you don't allow her to set a precedent for the future by letting her book this one as she wants to. Let us know how it goes! Best, Dali |
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Andy Wonder Special user Auckland, New Zealand 747 Posts |
This sounds to me like a win/win situation. It is hard for part time performers to find a good agent. If you have a day job you don’t want to spend your lunch break calling back birthday clients & printing contacts. Look at it this way, I am a full time performer but over 50% of my time & expenses in this business would be related to selling & marketing my show. If you can let someone else do that for you then that has to be ideal for any performer with a day job.
Actually if Jane is doing all the selling & booking for you then you should be offering her a good discount off your normal fee. You have to decide is Jane offering a booking service for you or an organization service for her clients? In reality it is a bit of both. What I would do is this… I would increase my fee to equal the charge out people pay thru Jane for your show. But I would keep it at the current rate for Jane. As far as promoting your self to Jane’s clients goes, don’t do it. Those are Jane’s clients and it is only fair you don’t try to poach them. Just as Jim says make sure Jane pulls her weight in term of looking after all the contacts deposits and that side of things. That is her job; you just get the fun part, performing.
Andy Wonder, Auckland, New Zealand
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flourish dude Inner circle from ? But I know where I am going! 1195 Posts |
I think she is asking too much if you have to do the leg work. But I read that you charged 110.00 - 150.00 on your own, sounds like your getting the same pay. The problem here is you now what you can get for your show. This being said who is the gready one? I would tell her if she is going to get $90.00 for this show then she needs to book the show, make the calls and collect the deposite. If you have to do that then you will need to raise your fees. As far as the business cards then you need to ask her to make you some with your name on it with her number. If she is acting like an agent then you should not promote yourself. This way they call her and ask for you. This will get you the show and not let her book another person and looks more professional for both of you.
It does not matter how much she charges for the show, that is her business but you need to make what you need to make. Sounds like she knows the value of your show better than you. When I first started I called around and asked agents what they charged for a birthday show I also called and asked what they paid the entertainer. I found out the going rate for the agent and the entertainment. I based my prices off this. My normal fee was the same as the agents fee for the client. I did find the entertainment fee was about 10-25%. For the birthday market I am not sure how many shows you would get if you charged the agent the same price as you charge for you own shows. Most agents charge the same for all their talent (Mind you this is a smaller birthday type agents or party planners, not a big time agent whom books bigger giggs, these people don't usally mess with birthday parties). If you charge 200.00 for you show you might get 150.00 for the same show with an agent. Over time when you are getting more shows then you can handle then you up your prices. But for now I would start out at the same rate or a little higher then everyone else. You need to have a price for when you book yourself out and a price you charge the agent.
Nothing of the same will bring any change, take action today!
Just taking a step, is a step in the right direction because when you stop working, your dream dies. www.magicalmemories.us |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
So much excellent advice on this thread.
BTW, for what it's worth, I totally agree that you should ONLY give out the agent's contact information / business cards at an event the agent has hired you for. Spin offs of that show should go to her. I have an agent I have worked for a couple of times in the past year, and I had a dilema. I wanted to give out my activity books, but they had my personal contact information on them. I asked her if it was OK, and she said yes. If she had said no, then no problem, I would respect her wishes. However, I still made a commitment in my mind, that if someone contacted me personally because of my activity book, as a result of that particular show, then I would pass that customer over to her to work as my agent. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Al Kazam the Magic Man Inner circle Living in Perth Western Australia 1042 Posts |
I've had these sorts of things happen a lot here in Taiwan. I'm a bit with Andy on this one. If you've negotiated the fee with Jane that your happy with, then you have probably been happy when the gigs came through. The problems come in when you find out how much they really charge their clients for your show. I personally am learning that it's very important to get these sorts of things sorted out before entering into an agreement with these types of people. What can you say later after it's already been happening for a while and you have been happy to have gotten the fee you've been getting? It looks kinda lame to start complaining after the fact (of finding out unexpectedly how much they are charging the clients for your show) , after you've been happy so far with the arrangement. I think I can say this from my own experience of having the same thing happen to me more than once.
For me it's an upward learning curve in the business of showbusiness. I've been learning a lot about that recently, and at times think it's as important or even more important than having a good show. Have you invested in many of the good courses available on the business of showbusiness? I'd suggest that you talk honestly to Jane, and set up the best way to work together, so you're happy with it. She is obviously, getting that much money from your show. Or better yet, raise your price for your show, if it's worth it. I've recently set up a pricing for both my own bookings and those that agents get me. If I don't give them a good discount for it, they just won't try and book me, plain and simple. They key for me is having a good understanding with the agents before hand. Don't promote yourself at shows booked by agents. I've inadvertently had a manager of a store ask me for my phone number after I performed and had the agent go beserk after finding out about it. Not professional at all, especially if you don't have this sort of understanding clear with your agent. JoJo
Magic guy in Perth Australia
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keeblem Inner circle Essex, UK 1167 Posts |
Like everybody else it seems Jane is charging way too much in commission. But does it happen very often when the client wants the party done at home? If it is only rarely and you were happy with the arrangement before perhaps it is best to carry on. However it doesn't seem right you are also doing all the leg work.
You have to ask yourself that if you say to Jane you are not happy with the arrangement do you want to risk losing the gig? Mark |
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magicbern Inner circle Hong Kong, China 1220 Posts |
My take on this is that the agent has the right to charge whatever she can get for the show. The only thing unethical would be if she undercut your price to make a profit. Perhaps she has gone through a lot to get the booking and has overheads (such as rent, other staff, income tax etc) and anyway, could you have got the booking by yourself? If performers begrudge others but are getting bookings they wouldn't have got otherwise then I think its 'sour grapes'.
Also, I agree with members who posted that you don't have the right to hand out your own cards as the show was obtained through her. Seems to me some performers want to have their cake and eat it too! |
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Rupert Bair Inner circle ? 2179 Posts |
Jane seems to be taking you for granted Danny and making money off you, she's not even using her premisies, yet she wants $90 for picking up the phone. If you still wish to be the resident magician then sort out a proper fee. Two years ago I has the same sort of deal in a hotel, it worked great for them but I still got my regular fee, but I never found out how much they charged the people for me.
Matt |
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Cheshire Cat Special user Wilmslow, UK 941 Posts |
It's all been said Danny. We started off working excellent fees for an Agent, but he took a third in commission, AND kept a separate little red book for kids parties that were always cash transactions both to him and us! - now what's that word that comes to mind Donald? begins with a letter 'T'?
Of course she is justified in charging a commission out of the entertainment, why not? But this is excessive. |
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Rupert Bair Inner circle ? 2179 Posts |
<<<<<now what's that word that comes to mind Donald? begins with a letter 'T'?>>>>>>
Not time for tea already is it Tony, I've only just got up! |
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Harv Inner circle I'm building a fence with 1127 Posts |
An agent can charge whatever they want for a show. If she has found someone willing to pay $200 for your show and you are getting your regular fee why would you feel ripped off? I'm surprised she doesn't take a commission from the parties you do in her store....after all she has the overhead of running the place. She should however, acting as an agent, be the one to do all the confirmations. You should just show up and do your thing and yes, if you are working for an agent you hand out THEIR cards after the show. If you are uncomfortable working for her in this capacity then don't, but since she is giving you work in her store you may want to do her a favour by taking the parties that she books for you. Another thing......if she can get $200 for your show you may want to reconsider your own rates.
Cheers, Harv |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
Hi Danny:
I agree with Andy Walker's comments. Really, I wouldn't stress over this one bit. Ron |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
It would have probably been better if she never told you how much she was getting and just given you her business cards and been done.
But since you have to ask for the $200, that doesn't sound so hot. Why couldn't the store owner pay you and just collect from the lady herself instead of getting you to do it? Basically you are torn and I do understand how you feel. I probably would go ahead and knock them dead with a killer show though. Keep it Kickin:) C
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Emazdad Inner circle Plymouth UK 1954 Posts |
You've not so much been ripped off, you agreed the fee, but more taken advantage of. This is why I don't work through agents.
You did agree a fee to her for your shows in the store where obviously she has other overheads that effect her profit, what does she provide to the party apart from you? However if she's farming you out to houses you should arrange a different fee, after all you now have extra travelling expenses. People are willing to pay a lot more for you through her than you charge so your fee is obviously far too low as it is. You were foolish not to discuss what she was charging others and what she was making when you went into this, and you did agree to work in her store for a set fee. One of the questions you should have asked her in your first discussion was, "What will you be charging the bookers?" and then work out your fee from there. Now you know that she has been taking you for granted it's time to talk to her about an increase in your fees. If she wasn't willing to increase my fee I'd stop working for her. If you're good enough you don't need these people to generate your business.
Yours Funfully
Clive "Emazdad" Hemsley www.emazdad.com "Magic is a secret, without the secret there is no magic" Remember there are only 3 types of people in the world, those that can count and those that can't. |
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Danny Diamond Inner circle Connecticut 1400 Posts |
Wow, great advice guys, as usual.
From your responses, I have learned that the passing out of her information, as opposed to mine, is perfectly acceptable. That is good t know, one less thing to stress over. I can accept that arrangement. Quote:
On 2004-10-08 23:27, kenscott wrote: That is a perfectly legit question Ken, and based on my experience and area, I feel the $110-150 price is perfect for where I am right now. I do not feel I am a $200/show performer yet. I give 100% to my show, practice hard and put a lot of thought into everything, but there are the years of experience that I do not have yet. In time, I will raise my prices, but for now, I feel my price is right. To make this issue more difficult, when I called the mother, she mentioned that she did want balloon animals after the show. Jane told me she did NOT want balloons. So $110 is my minimum, but once you add balloons, the price goes up. So now the mother has a set price that she thinks includes balloons. I explained that there is an additional small charge for balloons, and fortunately, she was very understanding and had no issue with the extra charge. So now, I am doing a $220 show - nearly double my base rate for my standard show. I told the mother that the deposit was still $90 for Jane, which means Jane will never even know that I raised the total to cover the balloon animals the mother requested. As some have said, it IS a good situation to have Jane getting me gigs, especially since I am still getting my standard rate in the end. I never questioned anything when the shows were in her store, but now Jane is simply showing my flyer to a patron of her store, calling me to see if the date is clear, and then having me go out and perform while she pockets a large fee. At least in the past, she was providing a nice room to perform in, in her store. I think I will have a talk with Jane after this party, and try to work out a different deal that works for both of us. Thanks very much to everyone for your advice.
You don't drown by falling in the water;
you drown by staying there. - Edwin Louis Cole |
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