Couldn't have put it better Leland. I tend to steer clear of the ghost effects in church settings and kid's parties.

Let the people think what they wish...it isn't their business anyway.

I have had similar situations, but after them seeing my show, they seemed to respect me more and realize that what I was doing was entertainment, and not invoking the spirit.

For a bizarrist, I'm basically in a minority. I'm a Missouri Synod Lutheran. That's basically the same thing as a Hard Shell Baptist, except that we are allowed to drink beer in front of each other, because our roots are German. But I'm not a fanatic about it. I have friends of every imaginable religious stripe. And plaid, and polka dot. I don't try to convert them, and they don't try to convert me. We have respect as well as friendship for one another.

The pastor of my church knows that I have studied the occult quite a bit as part of my Merlin role as well as for the presentation of some of my magickal stories. This doesn't bother him a bit. In fact, from time to time, when there is some kind of flap that threatens to tear the community apart, such as the ritualistic murders of the high school senior from Santa Fe, Texas, several years ago, he will have me come in and do a talk about what is really going on. I'm usually able to put a damper on any of the bad feelings that the church members might harbor for the gypsy lady who runs the mitt joint down the street, etc.

And if you doubt my sincerity in saying that I respect the beliefs of my friends of other faiths, let me say that on several occasions, friends of mine who are Wiccans have asked me to explain what they believe on various local television programs. I have declined, because I felt I should leave that to a Wiccan.

Possibly less of a minority than you think, Bill.
My wife and I are Christian mystics. My beliefs fall somewhere between Wesleyan Methodists and The Reform Church of America (Norman Vincent Peale's crowd). I also believe, as Benjamin Franklin (a deist) did, that the more you understand about science and nature, the closer you get to grasping the subtle metaphysical principles behind those realities.
Our friends and relatives include Pentacostals, Celtic Pagans, Wiccans, Deists, Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Existentialists and Humanists.
We get along fairly well in SW Ohio, but with the increasingly intense 'Fundamentalist push,' New England is looking better and better.

Steve

Hiya, Magi:

It seems clear that tolerance is critical in getting along with persons of various belief systems. My circle of friends is not as diverse as Steve's, but I still find it intellectually stimulating to speak with persons with whom I disagree.

I affirm absolutism, and thus would probably be called "fundamentalist" by most people (although I object to the term's pejorative usage). As such, it is not possible for me to respect spiritual beliefs which are contrary to my own -- if by "respect" one means "to regard an opposing view as equally valid." That would be logically inconsistent.

It is possible -- in fact, it is morally impingement upon me -- to respect any person holding spiritual views I regard as contrary to my own. I believe this to be a classical understanding of the term "tolerance," and it serves as a basis for civil, principled disagreement.

Leland

Wow! A lot of good stuff's been said.

It is not secret that I hold a deep personal bias when it comes to the Fundamentalist aspect of American Christianity. Know however that I loathe most any and all forms of "organized" religion or, to be more accurate "Cultism" (for that is what they all are.) More so, and as has been pointed out, the typecast of all groups stem from some sense of truth.

Like most that have posted above, I too was raised in a classic Southern Baptist household. An aspect of family tradition, as it were, is to become a minister (we had 5 at one point, alive and well... that's now down to none -- they've all died off). Each and everyone of these individuals preached fire & brimestone while screwing the parisioners at both, literal and metaphoric levels. Nearly each of these "Men of the cloth" were gun tot'n hard drinking con-artists. One of them, the more successful of the group, retained his partnerships with noted Italian Businessmen of northwestern Indiana and ran strip joints, and other "questionable" modes of business on the side, using his church as a "filter" or "laundramat" if you know what I mean.

I've worked with some of the more noted Gospel Singers of this country as well. One, a black gent of 1970s fame, was one of the worse womanizers and junkies I'd ever met. Another, a noted bass voice of the sect, had a worse mouth on him than any sailor I knew when I was in the service.

Now, if this weren't enough to create a personal bias towards "the church" we can add personal studies in anthropology, general history, theology, etc. and the discovery of how much "biblical" material was "borrowed" from alternate -- much older -- cultures and traditions. Lay that on top of the pile of bodies (an estimated 300 MILLION) that were slain in the name of this particular religion in its formative years to the mid-20th century. Murders guised under the banners of "Morality" and of course, the expansion of said cult's influence.

Sorry, but even if I were inclined towards those beliefs, I would refuse to call myself a Christian, simply because of the horrors it has represented to the whole of the world over the past 1,700 or so years.

Now here's the irony in all this... I actually do believe in and host a "testimony" so to speak, about JC and his Sunshine band. My understanding is a bit more Gnostic, but it's there. At the same time, I embrace my Celtic ancestry and the Druidic perspectives on this very same individual... after all, he was a key player in our history as was Noah and his uncle Joseph of Aramathea (the tin trade was a big part of Druid commerce in those days.)

I've lived under the heavy hand of prejudice and condemnation associated with the far right side of Christianity for the whole of my life. It taught me that I was wrong for being who and what I am and that I was ***ed no matter what. I simply can't believe that's the way of a loving parent and so, I had to redefine and readdress said issue.

That does not mean that I've escaped the hypocricy associated with such things, nor the bigotry. I've simply come to believe that, contrary to "their" point of view, I have a spiritual testimony that's just as strong and just as valid as their own. That's what matters... that and my ability to live within the paradigm I've embraced while allowing others to do likewise.

I know a lot of good christian people who are not part of the fascist reich that keeps bearing its ugly head and seeking to impose its will upon the people of the world. One magician friend of mine has even ventured into the Bizarre realm, seeking to create a program that will help him reach the kids in his church's youth department. I've even attempted to help him in that endeavor.

From the performer's point of view however, I will make note that some of the skeletons within the coffers of the church (any of them) make great material when it comes to Bizarre Magick. If you doubt me, take a look at the legends surrounding the artifacts associated with Christ or Noah's Ark or better yet, the Inquisition and Black Mass.

Thanks for letting me rant just a bit... I did not mean it as an insult to those that shared. Just revealing why I have a personal distrust and loathing of said institution.

Later!

Hiya, Osiris:

Your post was interesting in that it attributed the misdeeds of individual representatives (hypocritical Christians) to the account of the organization (Christianity).

The 300 million figure you've cited as the number of persons murdered by organized Christianity is debatable. [SEE BELOW]
Granting, however, that organized religion has a splotchy record, that still leaves the problem of confusing the messenger with the message. Lots of people -- like your felonious preacher relatives -- misappropriate religious titles (a trait not unknown even amongst pagans), but that doesn't invalidate the religion.

People who misuse religion for their own purposes impugne their own honour, character, and reputation, not those of the claimed religion. The most egregious contemporary example is that of Timothy McVeigh, who claimed to be a Christian, but whose actions clearly contradicted this claim.

Sincerely,
Leland Edward Stone


300 million persons murdered in the name of Christianity (or any religion) seems implausible, simply because the population of the world only reached 1 billion by 1900. Further, 1/3 of Europe was extinguished by plague in the Middle Ages, leaving fewer victims from which to draw over the 1400 years (from Constantine to the Enlightenment) that organized Christianity had any significant temporal power. It would have required more than 210,000 persons to be killed per year, every year, non-stop for 1400 years, for Christianity to be responsible for that total. No such holocaust is attested to by history.

Of course, the Americas were decimated in the name of religion, entire civilizations reduced to rubble. How many people is that? I don't know.

"When religious people are given political power, they often try to kill the rest of us." Eugene Burger

Of course, that quote is in reference to the theme of Eugene's wonderful routining of Inquisition (card warp). One of the things that artists do is help people see things from a different perspective. Whenever fervent people abound there is blindness to fault and forgetfulness of what we share.

Genocide, although practiced by the thieving hordes of Cortes & Company, was certainly not unknown in the New World. Those fun-loving Aztecs were pretty voracious butchers, if pre-Columbian art, early Spanish first-hand accounts, and contemporary archaeology are any indication.

Nearly any institutional activity can become a pretext for abuse when utilised by the ruling party. Religion, whether pagan or Christian, is one such example. Environmentalism is another; substitute "Earth First!" for "religion" in the Burger quote and see if it doesn't work just as well. "Humanism" is yet another example, as witnessed by The Reign of Terror in France that followed on the heels of the Enlightenment. Atheism has its own skeletons in the closet...30 million and counting during the regime of Josef Stalin alone.

What's the upshot? People are corrupt. Sounds like a Bizarre routine in the making to me!

Leland Edward Stone