The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Ethics?...what ethics » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
hkwiles
View Profile
Special user
Howard Wiles
797 Posts

Profile of hkwiles
Brown,
"Private affair"...hardly when it is in the middle of a Mall sat on a stool, any one could have stood by and listened, If she wanted some priacy why not have a booth comprised of a couple of screens?.
You "old lady" plies her trade in a more "honourable" way..if can can call the Practice that.

Howard
David Numen
View Profile
Inner circle
1913 Posts

Profile of David Numen
Regardless of whether WE think that the reading was too short, or whether WE think the pensioner got value for money, it's none of our business!!!

Let me tell you a story...

I was friendly with a few timeshare salesman in Spain. In fact, I used to do readings at their resort. Every week the manager would do a presentation to the arrivals and during that presentation he would warn of a very common con. You'll meet someone on the street who gives you a scratch card and you WILL win a prize on that scratchcard - anything from a DVD player to a cash prize or even a holiday. To get your prize you need togo in a taxi (which they pay for) and watch a little presentation. Sometimes you are promised an amzing show on a boat or whatever. In reality, it's a hard sell presentation in order to try and get your timeshare rights in return for a supposedly maintenance-payment free holiday for life. Of course, it's a con and a clever one at that. But people sign up! Even people who have been warned!!! Every week this manager gets 3 or 4 people knocking on his door sobbing because they've signed away their timeshare rights AND passed on their credit card details - and these companies will max out the credit cards. The contracts the people sign are being made more and more watertight and it's getting harder to get people out of them - prevention is better than the cure but the reality is people are so stupid and so willing to get something for nothing that they sign away their life savings. Part of me despises the people who run these cons BUT the cons wouldn't exist if people didn't fall for them. If people had the presence of mind to THINK for themselves rather than just believe everything they are told then the con wouldn't exist. But we are living in an ever-incresingly nannied state where responsibility is passed away left right and centre and people are thinking for themselves less and less.

This attitude of needing to "protect" people from psychics is part of this nannying. Let people make their own choices AND let these same people deal with the consequences of the choices they make. The pensioner in this case paid up for the reading. He presumably didn't ask how much beforehand, or ask how long. Who's fault is it then?

If I go to the butcher and ask for a pound of steak and I get home and discover a half pound of sausages then I have been conned. If I go to the butcher and he tells me he'll give me a bag with some meat in it and I pay up without asking what it is or how heavy it is then I've conned myself.

As for psychic baiting - puhlease. We are living in a world where two of the most powerful politicians have sent our countries to war on teh basis of highly spurious intelligence. We live in a world where every major religion is used as a mask for kiddie-fiddling and making people feel guilty. Ask yourself, is a psychic, even at the low level of this shopping mall woman, really doing that much harm? For all you know she might have given this old geezer the lift he needed!

Regards,

David.
hkwiles
View Profile
Special user
Howard Wiles
797 Posts

Profile of hkwiles
She may well have done David..done take it all personally just because you are in the same trade.

As for the Holiday scam .
I was party to the exact scam you mention whilst on holiday in Skiathos last year.
We WON a prize. So we went for the presentation next day ..as it happens it was raining, and as there's not much to do In Skiathos when the sun don't shine.. it didn't matter, gave us something to do.
We were collected by taxi, driven to this fabulous hotel comlex, given a slap up breakfast, shown round the accommodation and then some pretty girl talked us through the offer.After every question she tried to get a "yes" response, so I gave her one!! every time I asked "well how much does it cost?" she wouldn't answer. So, following that, every time she aske a question and waited for the Yes response I said.."depends how much it costs..".
Finally after the major part of the morning had elapsed we were presented to a (so he thought ) slick, suited saleman, or should I say saleslad, my son is probably older than he was and I am old enough to be this guys dad, grandad even!!.
"what do think.. fabulous isn't it?" he asks.
"Yes if that's what you want " I said.
"So, how are you going to pay for it, cheque, credit card?" he said presumptiously, (I thought Sales text books with that line, went out with the Ark)
"Sorry", I said "I don't remember saying I wanted to buy it?"
"Wouldn't you like three holidays a year?" he said.
"Not really, I'm retiring next year and I've just bought a villa in Spain with my brother, so I can have a holiday all year round..Wheres my prize please?".
The prize ..of course was a holiday at the hotel..for one..you had to pay for the flight and anyone else who wanted to come.

Moral..don't try and sell to someone who has had 30 years in Sales and has been to more sales seminars than you have had hot dinners!.

Howard
Brown
View Profile
New user
5 Posts

Profile of Brown
Actually the street psychic I know is quite a young woman.Not an "old lady" at all.
Regarding listening in to other people's readings I take your point that it was a public place but some psychics often are forced to read in the open like this.
I know they don't like people listening in but they have to accept it to a degree.
However it is rude to do so and is unfair to the person being read.
I am also guilty of listening in so shouldn't be preaching about it but I got cured of it when an outspoken lady client turned to me and said "why don't you go away and mind your own business!"
You know what? She was right!!!!
David Numen
View Profile
Inner circle
1913 Posts

Profile of David Numen
Well, I wasn't taking it personally until you mentioned psychic baiting - it seemed an odd leap to go from being disgusted with one particular psychic to talking about baiting others to see how they like being conned.

This scam of winning a prize is rife on the Costa Del Sol and the villains are getting better and better at it - still, it seems when people come to Spain to sign up for a holiday or even a new home, they leave their brain at the airport!

What part of Spain have you bought a villa in Howard? I was on the Costa Del Sol for 3 years but am now nowhere near any Brits! It's 75% a good thing and 25% a bad thing! lol

Regards,

David.
hkwiles
View Profile
Special user
Howard Wiles
797 Posts

Profile of hkwiles
Dave ,
Sorry if you got offended but the con on the old guy REALLY was THAT BAD.
Villa in Spain..., sorry didn't mention but.. I wish !!
I haven't got one , just me pxxxing the guy off and giving him an answer he couldn't really counter.He got up and left when I said that. Its true about retiring next year though..although I think I will play it by ear..if Istill feel up to it I'll keep working.

cheers
Howard
David Numen
View Profile
Inner circle
1913 Posts

Profile of David Numen
I wasn't offended as such but it's one thing to be appalled with one particular reader, and quite another to go psychic baiting! I really do despise the hypocrisy of the creator of that term and it rankles me whenever it comes up. By hypocrisy, I mean that he obviously dislikes psychic readings and claims to want to educate people about them yet happily publishes a book which the majority of purchasers will use in order to learn how to do readings!

Again, I hear what you are saying regarding the reading being bad and perhaps you are right BUT the final judge is the customer. Presumably you didn't speak with the man so you can't really judge whether he was satisfied or not.

As to the length of the reading - sometimes you can literally tell someone all they need to know in 2 minutes which is a problem when you have half an hour or even an hour to do!

Re the villa in Spain - sorry! I wondered after I sent my post whether it might have been a line you were using on the guy.

Regards,

David.
hkwiles
View Profile
Special user
Howard Wiles
797 Posts

Profile of hkwiles
Dave ,
I'll just make one FINAL analogy and then lets call it a day on the matter.

If the same guy has leaky tap that needs a new washer,he calls a Plumber.(the plumber doesn't call him).
The plumber turns up "assesses" the problem,but then pretends to tinker about for a while , tells the old man he needs a completely new tap, duely fits one , charges £75 and leaves.
Now..the old man has a working tap and is satisfied with the job.
Does that make the way the plumber conned him OK ? and what went on between the plumber and client a private matter?

Howard
David Numen
View Profile
Inner circle
1913 Posts

Profile of David Numen
Not a good analogy though. The plumber has given the man something he didn't need or ask for - in other words the plumber misrepresented the situation and told a lie.

The reader gave the man a reading. He was happy enough with it that he paid up for it. The reader didn't say, "Oh, you need your aura cleansed" or "Your chakras need balanced" and furthermore didn't say it would be a half hour reading and then only did 10 minutes. Absolutely no misrepresentation (discounting the notion of psychic ability which is a matter of personal belief).

Regards,

David.
Laughing Otter
View Profile
Loyal user
Behind you!
205 Posts

Profile of Laughing Otter
Quote:
On 2004-10-16 14:45, jimtron wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-10-16 12:15, landmark wrote:
Sounds harmless to me. Better that, than attempts at medical, legal or intense psychological "advice." Also better than a pitch for expensive spells or curses.


Jack, would you mind elaborating on how tarot and palm reading is better than medical or psychological advice?
Thanks, Jim


I think the point was that he would rather see the psychic give a lousy reading as opposed to handing out half-baked psychology, which could do some actual harm.
jimtron
View Profile
Inner circle
2032 Posts

Profile of jimtron
Hi folks, sorry for the lengthy post:
Quote:
On 2004-10-16 13:41, Dr_Stephen_Midnight wrote:
My wife has one client who is always trying to 'shoot himself in the foot' with self-sabotaging relationship and work-related behavior. So far she has succeeded in guiding him away from some potentially disastrous actions, and pushed him toward some more constructive courses of action.

Steve


That's the same thing that psychologists do, isn't it? I'm all for this kind of practical, counseling type help. It's the palm reading/tarot/psychic stuff that I feel is arguably a scam.
Quote:
As to the matter of belief - if anyone is knowingly doing readings and believes the whole thing to be hogwash then I think that's very bad.
David.

In my opinion, I think many readers do believe they have metaphysical powers, such as forecasting the future, but in reality they don't actually have those powers.
Is it always ethical if the reader believes he has powers, even if he or she doesn't have the powers? Isn't the important question really: is the reader claiming to have powers that they don't really have?

Quote:

If I go to the butcher and ask for a pound of steak and I get home and discover a half pound of sausages then I have been conned. If I go to the butcher and he tells me he'll give me a bag with some meat in it and I pay up without asking what it is or how heavy it is then I've conned myself.


If you pay for a psychic reading and the reader does not actually have psychic powers, isn't that false advertising, like the butcher selling sausages as steak? I'm sure we could argue about what exactly 'psychic' means, but I would argue that most people think of a psychic as someone with some kind of supernatural powers like foretelling the future.

In reality, I don't believe there are any (or at least very few) 'psychics' who do anything more than talk therapy or use cold reading techniques or simply make stuff up. To use the butcher analogy again, if the reader said, "If you pay me I'll give you talk therapy and/or make up a bunch of stuff that will make you feel good," that would be like asking for meat and getting it. Calling yourself a psychic when you don't posses psychic powers is like selling steak as sausages, in my most humble of opinions.

Quote:
On 2004-10-17 15:56, bartlewizard wrote:
Not a good analogy though. The plumber has given the man something he didn't need or ask for - in other words the plumber misrepresented the situation and told a lie.

The reader gave the man a reading. He was happy enough with it that he paid up for it. The reader didn't say "Oh, you need your aura cleansed" or "Your chakras need balanced" and furthermore didn't say it would be a half hour reading and then only did ten minutes...absolutely no misrepresentation (discounting the notion of psychic ability which is a matter of personal belief).

Regards,

David.


Isn't claiming psychic ability a lie or misrepresentation? Could you please clarify what you mean by "a matter of personal belief?"

Quote:
On 2004-10-16 12:15, landmark wrote:
Sounds harmless to me. Better that, than attempts at medical, legal or intense psychological "advice." Also better than a pitch for expensive spells or curses.

Quote:
Jack: would you mind elaborating on how tarot and palm reading is better than medical or
I think the point was that he would rather see the psychic give a lousy reading as opposed to handing out half-baked psychology, which could do some actual harm.


Couldn't a psychic cause harm? Could you kindly give an example of how a psychologist could do harm in a way that a psychic reader couldn't? Don't some people make serious life decisions based on psychic readings that might be something the psychic simply made up on the spot? Couldn't that be harmful?

Again, I'm not sure if we are all on the same page regarding belief in actual psychic ability. I'm curious what you all think about what true psychic ability is and whether anyone really has it.

Thanks for your time.
hkwiles
View Profile
Special user
Howard Wiles
797 Posts

Profile of hkwiles
Well, if anyone has true psychic abilities he hasn't contacted Mr. Randi to claim the $1 million prize. I believe they are still waiting for a reply from Sylvia Browne since she took up the challenge.

I agree with all your comments jimtron. At least we are reading from the same page!

Howard
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
View Profile
Inner circle
SW Ohio, USA
1555 Posts

Profile of Dr_Stephen_Midnight
"In my opinion, I think many readers do believe they have metaphysical powers, such as forecasting the future, but in reality they don't actually have those powers.
Is it always ethical if the reader believes he has powers, even if he or she doesn't have the powers? Isn't the important question really: is the reader claiming to have powers that they don't really have?"

This is based entirely on your assumption (opinion) that such things do not exist. Not everyone agrees with you on this point.

Gentlemen, I think it's high time we agree to disagree and move on. This discussion is heading into the insoluble realm.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
David Numen
View Profile
Inner circle
1913 Posts

Profile of David Numen
The guy wasn't conned, IMHO. Psychic ability is a matter of belief - just as religion is. The guy obviously believed to some extent, he went for a reading, got a reading and paid for it. In fact, he got two readings so must have been happy enough with the first part!

I fail to see the "con". He may have conned himself, certainly, but if he didn't check how much it would be OR how long it would be beforehand, then it's his own fault. I have done readings in public places and 90% of the clients ask how much and how long beforehand.

Jimtron, go and read the numerous threads on psychic readers. I have no interest in starting yet another tedious, endless debate on psychic abilities. I have my beliefs which are based on MY own experience. Sadly a lot of people read a book of Randi's or Rowland's and think they know all the answers without doing any further research.

Regards,

David.
Bambaladam
View Profile
Special user
636 Posts

Profile of Bambaladam
That's the funny thing, David, the "research-minded fact lovers" actually discouraging personal research.

Well put.

I agree it is hard to see where there was a "con" involved, although the reading may have been poor and expensive. My feeling about most food in all the eateries in England. Smile

/Bamba
hkwiles
View Profile
Special user
Howard Wiles
797 Posts

Profile of hkwiles
It doesn't matter whether someone believes or not. It's still a "trick" either way.

Howard
Greg Owen
View Profile
Special user
623 Posts

Profile of Greg Owen
Hmmm...When I started doing readings, my readings were what might be described as "cookie cutter" - basically a recitation of the meaning of the cards as I had learned them.

Thing is, the querrent finds value in it! Much of what happens is the querrent projecting his or her life situation into what cards come up.

It's like a mirror. The identical cards could come up for two different querrents, and the reader could say the identical thing in each case, yet each querrent would go away with a unique and personalized meaning for the reading. I rather quickly concluded that there was no need for me to "fill in the blanks" or such. It's automatic!

No harm in this, I say. Better than, "Your money's cursed. Give me your bank account number and..."

- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
jimtron
View Profile
Inner circle
2032 Posts

Profile of jimtron
Quote:
On 2004-10-19 03:23, bartlewizard wrote:
The guy wasn't conned IMHO. Psychic ability is a matter of belief - just as religion is. The guy obviously believed to some extent, he went for a reading, got a reading and paid for it. In fact, he got 2 readings so must have been happy enough with the first part!

I fail to see the "con". He may have conned himself, certainly, but if he didn't check how much it would be OR how long it would be beforehand, then it's his own fault. I have done readings in public places and 90% of the clients ask how much and how long beforehand.

Jimtron, go and read the numerous threads on psychic readers. I have no interest in starting yet another tedious, endless debate on psychic abilities. I have my beliefs which are based on MY own experience. Sadly a lot of people read a book of Randi's or Rowland's and think they know all the answers without doing any further research.

Regards,

David.



I respect everyone's opinions and beliefs. But I disagree that psychic ability is a matter of belief similar to religion. No one has been able to prove or disprove whether god exists.

It seems to me it would be a fairly simple matter to prove psychic ability, even without involving Randi. If there are psychics out there who can predict the future, why not post a bunch of predictions here at the Café? In my opinion psychic ability shouldn't be too hard to prove. Maybe I don't understand what people here mean by psychic. What kind of psychic abilities do you have?

As far as the con, I guess we'll agree to disagree. But to clarify a point, I don't think the guy got conned because the reading was too short. I think he got conned because of false advertising, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

As far as "Sadly a lot of people read a book of Randi's or Rowland's and think they know all the answers without doing any further research," I am a strong proponent of critical thinking, which requires an open mind and close examination of the facts. I don't have much respect for anyone who thinks they know everything and don't want to examine available information.

Bamba said: "That's the funny thing, David, the "research-minded fact lovers" actually discouraging personal research."

Who is discouraging personal research?

Thanks again for your time.

P.S. I would highly recommend Carl Sagan's book, The Demon-Haunted World--Science, as a Candle in the Dark, for an interesting and intelligent book on belief and critical thinking.
________________________

Quote:
On 2004-10-19 14:54, Greg Owen wrote:

Much of what happens is the querrent projecting his or her life situation into what cards come up. Its like a mirror...the identical cards could come up for two different querrents, and the reader could say the identical thing in each case, yet each querrent would go away with a unique and personalized meaning for the reading. I rather quickly concluded that there was no need for me to "fill in the blanks" or such. Its automatic!
- Greg Owen

On 2004-10-16 13:41, Dr_Stephen_Midnight wrote:
My wife has one client who is always trying to 'shoot himself in the foot' with self-sabotaging relationship and work-related behavior. So far she has succeeded in guiding him away from some potentially disastrous actions, and pushed him toward some more constructive courses of action.

Steve


Both of the above readings are basically psychology, in my opinion. Steve's wife is listening to the client and then using reason and logic and her intellect and life experience to arrive at an analysis and then make suggestions.

Greg is using the cards like a Rorschach test; the cards are reminding the reader of something in his or her life.

Can anyone give an example of a reading where something truly metaphysical was going on?
David Numen
View Profile
Inner circle
1913 Posts

Profile of David Numen
Jimtron, I have already wasted more than enough time in seemingly endless debates. Love cannot be created or tested or produced under laboratory conditions but few people would doubt it's existence. It is hard to explain or define what love is to someone who hasn't been in love, but it's something you just "know" when you encounter it. For some people, psychic abilities are exactly the same.

I believe very much in the existence of "something", however, it is very slippery and I feel perhaps one reason for this is that we aren't ready for the fill truth of it as a race. That's my opinion at the moment - it will probably change in a year because my opinions grow and change as I experience life. Strange how the skeptics' opinions seem to stay resolutely solid!

Regards,

David.
jimtron
View Profile
Inner circle
2032 Posts

Profile of jimtron
David:

I certainly don't want you to waste your time. This is an interesting discussion to me, so I'm still interested, but I understand if you'd rather not participate anymore.

I agree with what you said about love. I think everyone agrees that love exists and, of course, it cannot be measured scientifically. Same goes for art, religious faith, and many other things. However, for me, psychic ability is not one of those things.

If psychic ability is real, I think it would be for the good of all real psychics to prove that it's real. I think we would all agree that there are at least a few frauds out there. Wouldn't it be good to separate the scam artists from the authentic psychics?

What is psychic ability? Reading minds? Predicting the future? If someone has those abilities, I don't see why that couldn't be proven. If it was proven it would be great for business and would serve to shut up skeptics like me. If it can't be proven, perhaps it would be for everyone's good to accept that it's not real.

My opinions do not stay resolutely solid, I hope. If I saw any credible evidence that psychic ability really existed, I would gladly accept that. I don't have any axe to grind or agenda to follow. I simply am interested in getting as close as possible to the truth.

In the Sagan book I mentioned, the author debunked well known UFO sightings. On the other hand, he said that he thought that it was very likely that there was intelligent life out there somewhere, and he would be as excited as anyone to see visitors from another planet. But at the same time, the UFO sightings he studied were demonstrably bogus (they were not really ships or aliens from other places).

Skepticism is not a position, it's a method. The first time someone said the earth was round it seemed insane; the earth appears quite flat. But it was pointed out that the earth's shadow on the moon is round, and a ship sailing off in the distance shows the top mast last. So I don't believe something should be dismissed just because it sounds weird or implausible.

There are many things science has proven that are very odd and non-intuitive. If someone says, "I can fly," I say, I'm skeptical, but I'll gladly look at the evidence. If someone can fly, I'd like to know about it.

Best,

Jim
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Ethics?...what ethics » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.33 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL