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Tony Razzano
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Quote:
On 2004-10-19 13:23, hkwiles wrote:
It doesn't matter whether someone believes or not.
its still a "trick" either way.

Howard


Howard,

I want to be sure I understand your point of view. If the palmist really believes that palmistry is real, is it still a trick?

Best regards,

Tony Razzano
Best regards,
<BR>Tony Razzano, Past President, PEA
Winner of the PEA"s Bascom Jones and Bob Haines Awards
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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Unfortunately, most psychic flashes are bizarre synchronicities that cannot be demonstrated under 'test' conditions, and which often occur without handy documentation.

My family, and I personally, have experienced several of these. When David Bloom was covering the push in Iraq, my wife commented to me, "He's not coming back." It was just a feeling she had. Mr. Bloom never came back; two weeks after my wife's premonition, he was dead.

I do not have my wife's statement on videotape, or sworn before a court of law; it was just the two of us. I cannot offer anyone proof that it ever happened, so you are free to dismiss it as heresay (I'm sure you will).

I'll only say it happened; I was there. It is one of many such incidents I have witnessed or experienced in my lifetime.
We who believe cannot shout down you who do not, but we know what we believe...and why.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
hkwiles
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Howard Wiles
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Toby,

Yes.

Howard
jimtron
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I respect people's beliefs, whether they are paranormal or religious, and it's not my aim to challenge personal beliefs. But if someone is taking money in exchange for being healed or giving a psychic reading, in my opinion they have a responsibility to back up their claims. I do realize that many people who pay for readings would disagree with me.

Steve, in regard to your wife's premonition, it may well have been some kind of revelation or psychic flash. I certainly don't know that not to be true. But some would say people tend to remember the hits and forget the misses. If I got flashes like that, I would write them down every time I got one. Then I could see what percentage of them came true, and if that percentage was significantly higher than merely guessing.

If I did have a high percentage of hits, I would start sending my predictions to a reporter, or to a forum like this one, and others could verify it. I realize that other people may well not want to do that, but that's what I would do.

I'm not saying this to challenge you or your wife, or to be disrespectful, but you mentioned that you didn't think it could be documented, and I humbly disagree.

Thanks for your patience.

Respectfully,

Jim

I agree with you that science is not the be all and end all. I don't know anyone who believes that to be true. I also agree that many or most of us base a lot on what feels right, and I think that's not always such a good thing. I think many of us would benefit by being better critical thinkers.

Of course I don't believe we should all go around as emotionless robots, but I think we need to get a little more grounded in reality.

Yes, people are deceived every day. That doesn't make it right. I am against deceit period.

You said: "Isn't it nice that at least one person doing the deceiving is doing it with the other persons wellbeing in mind?"

Well, that's better than deceiving with ill will intended, but it would be even better to not deceive at all. I think psychics encourage belief in psuedoscience, which I believe not to be helpful. There are many many people suffering around the world. We are in danger of blowing the planet up with a nuclear war. These are times to take a realistic look at what's going on in the world, and how best to deal with our problems. If praying and creative visualization will help, then I'm all for that. If not, I'd rather spend my time doing more practical things to help change the world.

Yes, there are bad people in every profession. Bad doctors and cops should be taken to task for their misdeeds, and no, we shouldn't do away with their proffessions because of a few bad apples.

I think we would all agree that it's a solid fact that doctors can, at least sometimes, cure disease, repair broken bones, correct vision, replace defective organs, and in general save or extend lives. I don't think there is solid evidence that anyone has true psychic ability. Yes, psychics can make people feel good, and maybe help them through counseling (giving advice, like Steve mentioned about his wife). But that's not psychic power, that's talk therapy, so let's call it what it is. I don't want to ban psychics, I just don't want them to mislead people about what they are doing.

best,

Jim
Zack
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What do you mean by "psychic baiting?"
David Numen
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My main point is that if you are charging money for a psychic reading and you aren't actually psychic, it's false advertising and unethical.

But you've made it clear you won't believe in psychic ability unless there's scientific proof so as far as your concerned ALL psychics are advertising falsely and are unethical. This is just your belief versus the beliefs of millions of other people.

Quote:
If you truly think that my views are not that far from Nazism, please back that up with specific evidence from my statements.

You feel that your beliefs are how things should work! You believe that psychic abilities can only be verified by scientific methods and that until then everyone claiming to be psychic is a fraud and should therefore not be in practice. In other words, you want to suppress the beliefs of milions of people until scientific proof comes along.


Like many people, I started off doing straight Cold Reading, then I got more to grips with the divination systems I use and there's actually very little Cold Reading involved in what I do now. I use a straight interpretation of the systems mixed with intuitive flashes and, if necessary, Cold Reading to spice up the reading. I say I'm psychic, you say you don't believe it unless you get scientific proof. I say it's none of your or science's business!

Quote:
Well, that's better than deceiving with ill will intended, but it would be even better to not deceive at all. I think psychics encourage belief in psuedoscience, which I believe not to be helpful.

And "REAL" science (whatever that is) is sooo helpful isn't it? One week something's good for you, the next week it causes cancer! So much of science is determined by personal bias and the fact that in the world of science it is best not to rock the boat. Again, we come down to your beliefs and opinions. It is YOUR belief that it encourages "pseudoscience" - how do you know that "pseudoscience" is any less valid just because it doesn't meet with YOUR criteria?

Quote:
There are many many people suffering around the world.

So why doesn't science do something to help those people instead of wasting resources on something they can't prove at the moment?

Quote:
We are in danger of blowing the planet up with a nuclear war.

Which we couldn't do if it weren't for science...

Quote:
These are times to take a realistic look at what's going on in the world, and how best to deal with our problems.

And how to your propose we do that? What is realistic? There is so much BS , so many hidden facts, so many personal agendas by those in power where is the reality?

Quote:
If praying and creative visualization will help, then I'm all for that. If not, I'd rather spend my time doing more practical things to help change the world.

But again that's a personal view. It will help some people, it won't help others. Should it be discouraged because it doesn't help one person?

Quote:
I think we would all agree that it's a solid fact that doctors can, at least sometimes, cure disease, repair broken bones, correct vision, replace defective organs, and in general save or extend lives.

All this is true, but it's an inexact science. My mother-in-law takes 28 pills a day. No doubt they help her and they are for a reason. But ALL pills have side effects and perhaps some of them are doing as much harm as they are good. The worthiness of vaccines and many medicines are debated constantly and the scientific community can't even agree on the reality! Check into Aspartame some time for example!

Quote:
Yes, psychics can make people feel good, and maybe help them through counseling (giving advice, like Steve mentioned about his wife). But that's not psychic power, that's talk therapy, so let's call it what it is

That's your opinion, though. Counselling is the END result. I would argue the method is psychic. Besides, even in a worst case scenario where every single psychic in the world is a liar, the fact is many people go to a psychic who would NEVER consider going to a counsellor or therapist.

Quote:
I don't want to ban psychics, I just don't want them to mislead people about what they are doing.

But, again, we come down to your personal belief! As far as you're concerned they are ALL misleading people unless science says otherwise and since that ain't going to happen anytime soon then they should call themselves something else?

There are many people who advertise themselves as Palm Readers or Tarot Readers with no claim of psychic ability. They give a straightforward interpretation of the cards or the lines and may get the odd intuitive flash. All psychics have to do to escape your limitation is take that tack. Even a spirit medium could do the same - "Look, I don't know how or why this works but it seems to, let's see what happens."

As I've said, your opinion is just that. Realise that and accept that other people have other values. I am a great proponent of believing ANYTHING that helps you, no matter how absurd. For example, I have found it useful to believe that everything happens for a reason, and that reason serves us. Might be baloney, might not but I find it personally helpful to believe it. Someone else might believe the opposite - I couldn't care less so long as the belief helps them. Same with religions and new age beliefs. If I see someone with a belief that is obviously not helping them then I may try to do something about it but here's the deal. Our beliefs are very personal things based on our experiences and shape our world view. They take a loooot of work to even begin to change and people get very, very offended if you try to mess with them. I have found, through my own experience, that the best way for someone to learn something is for them to learn it themselves! Most people are very resistent to being shown the way by other people - even in the psychic world.

We have people who believe in psychics going to people who believe themselves to be psychic. You'll find that pretty hard to shake and at the end of the day it's none of your business.

Regards,

David.
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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We are opening up the whole can of worms of 'what you believe and why,' and it's relevance.
Since the push seems to be one regarding 'pure science and human responsibility,' I should point out that, from a purely empirically perspective, our little cosmic speck and what we do on it ultimately means ZIP.
PM me if you wish me to elaborate.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
David Numen
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Exactly, Stephen, thanks for the wake up call.

I didn't want to have this turn into yet another endless debate but it looks like that's where it's headed.

Bottom line, despite the best attempts of certain scientists and professional skeptics to scorn and cast doubt on the psychic world, the vast majority of people seem to have some degree of belief in ESP, intuition and psychic ability. Most people who do have such beliefe base their belief on their own experiences in life rather than quoting soem scientific journal or book. That situation is not going to change anytime soon, no matter who says what.

And as Stephen says, we are but a tiny insignificant bunch of people in a vast Universe...none of it matters! Get born, fins out who you are and express that and have as much fun doing so as you can and then die...and perhaps see what comes next! That's all there is to it - let yourself be yourself and let others be themselves!

That's all I've got to say on the matter (I;m sure you're glad to hear).

Regards,

David.
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