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David Nelson Elite user San Mateo, CA 404 Posts 
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On 2004-11-24 16:05, shane_delon wrote: That's a tough question to answer. Ortiz has stated numerous times that he considers magic to be inherently entertaining. Consequently, his routines use suspense more than humor and he plays up the magic. Also, his persona is a gambling expert so he does gambling routines and demonstrations as part of his act. If you like that, he'll be entertaining to you. The early Ortiz, like the early Ammar was fairly dry. He's improved considerably over the years and has come up with some extremely strong presentations. I could have my dates mixed up but I think that Cardshark is his first book in which he really applied the presentational theories he wrote up in strong magic. I think it followed the publication of strong magic, almost a proof of concept work since he's got some great routines in there. The material he put out before Cardshark, At the Card Table and lecture notes don't have the same presentational hooks that the routines in Cardshark and his other, later books have. Williamson, like Mullica and other really funny magicians, will really play up the humor. At times, they allow the humor to overshadow the magic. That's wonderful, they are extremely entertaining but magic done this way loses a little bit of the psychological impact. You're laughing so hard that you don't have time to think about what just happened and how impossible it was. Some would say that they are more entertaining but a magician who pulls in the humor to focus on the magic is more magical. I'd say Ortiz is about as entertaining as David Roth as far as personality goes but the presentations in his later books are generally on par with Roth's classic plots like the portable hole. I hope this helps you recognize where Ortiz stands. You can really see that he's applied the theory in Strong Magic to his later work and, in my opinion, it's really improved his magic. His routining has always been excellent since he's well read and technically very proficient but by adding presentational hooks he has taken his routines up a notch. Dave |
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PapaG Special user 863 Posts
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Just received my copy from magictricks.co.uk
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stevesmagic Regular user 179 Posts
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I wish I had either ordered it in the uk or paid for airmail. I just didn't think. My copy from Kaufmann is going to take 4 - 8 weeks ! What agony.
How stupid of me.
to the blue sky at the top of the hill...
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stevesmagic Regular user 179 Posts
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I don't know why I am looking through the door every day . GOING TO GO MAD. How stupid.
I am actually tempted to buy another copy from England and just keep one perhaps for a present one day. I want my book............................
to the blue sky at the top of the hill...
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Tarbell Magic Regular user UK 130 Posts
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On 2004-11-25 11:48, stevesmagic wrote: I pre-ordered my copy in September, paid for airmail to the U.K., and it still isn't here! |
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stevesmagic Regular user 179 Posts
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Weenieboy, pm me when you get your copy as it will infuriate me even more !
to the blue sky at the top of the hill...
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educated New user 12 Posts
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Strong Magic in the main is a good book although it is not perfect.
I certainly do not agree that magic is inherently entertaining. This is a very dangerous proposition and could encourage people to continue on their incompetent way. What point is there in writing a book on theory if magic is inherently entertaining? You may as well say go ahead and perform-you don't need to study presentation at all-the trick will see you through. YOU are the element that makes the magic come to life. Not the trick. Bad magicians (the majority) think that the latest fascinating trick will save them from mediocrity. It won't. The presentation is FAR more important than the trick. Without the fairy dust and showmanship that makes up an entertaining performance the trick is NOT "inherently entertaining" -it is inherently boring. It becomes a mere puzzle. I once heard a magician say that "the magic should be entertaining in and of itself" It is no surprise that this performer is one of the most boring individuals on the planet and his audiences fall asleep when they watch him. You need far more than the magic. I learned that when I was a beginner and took it to heart. Yet there are people who have been doing magic all their lives who still haven't got the message even though they may pay lip service to it. |
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Kevin Ram Special user Travelling through Europe 791 Posts
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Educated,
David blaines doesn't go in for presentation and look where he is. If your going to concentrate on the presentaion then why bother doing magic.May aswell just tell jokes. I mean, you don't want the magic getting in the way do you? What are we,magicians or something?
"Your the Italian stallion" As said by my g/friend
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tpdmagic Elite user 459 Posts
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Quote: Your joking right? David blain does have presentation just not the standard, its more of a blain thing(pun intended). Anyway Presentation is the most important part of what we do, the magic is secondary. If you look at any of the great magicians of today they are entertaining....Thats what its about entertaining the audience!
On 2004-11-29 09:12, Kevin Ram wrote: tpdmagic |
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David Nelson Elite user San Mateo, CA 404 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-11-29 09:12, Kevin Ram wrote: I forget where I first read this, probably some book on magic theory, but the author stated that people are interested in themselves first, other people second and other things third. A performance is an opportunity to show our take on our art, give the audience a little bit of who we are and, hopefully, give them the opportunity to express themselves as well. This is why people say do the magic in other peopple's hands or have the audience blow or make the magic gesture. It's a simplistic way to try to involve them and make the magic more powerful. Every public action that Blaine does shows us his "mysterious stranger" persona. It is an interesting character that draws people in and makes them wonder what kind of person he is. Some people think he can really do magic, some people think he's a prophet, some people think he's crazy. The point is, they are interested in him and the magic he does is a vehicle to display his persona. Were I a stamp collector, I could display my stamps to other collectors and they would all be very interested and entertained as I showed them off and pointed out the features, the watermarks and the discoloration of each one. However, most people would become bored after a couple of stamps if they weren't bored to begin with. The same is true of magic. As a magic lover, I can sit through hours of magic lectures at a convention and then head to the dealer's room to watch more demos while I wait eagerly for the next lecture. For most people, magic that is performed in a show and tell manner becomes boring and repetitive, on average, after 10 minutes. This is based purely on anecdotal evidence but I've performed a lot and watched a lot of other's performances so I've got a lot of anecdotes to back it up. On the other hand, a performer who uses magic to interact with his audience and allow them to see things from his perspective will be interesting for as long as his character is interesting. The magic can even be repetitive and boring but if the performer is interesting the performance will be, as well. One final note, with regards to telling jokes. I see many magicians who don't bother with presentations filling the gaps with jokes while those who have a solid premise that is inherently interesting find they don't have to. Based on the above comment, one would think it should be the opposite. Dave |
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stevesmagic Regular user 179 Posts
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Dave, I think you have been very fair with Mr Ram, if anyone thinks that you can perform magic with little or no presentation them they are fooling themselves. In fact, they are a bit on the stupid side.
Do you really want to look and act like David Blaine, come on , wake up, you want his money not his 'witty charm' and electric personality. Don't try and fool yourself, try his methods at your next function but don't bother to wait to be rebooked.
to the blue sky at the top of the hill...
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Verno Inferno Regular user Chicago 132 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-11-29 07:26, educated wrote: Hmmm... "inherently entertaining". Well I'll accept that magic is not inherently entertaining, if you accept that a song or a joke is not "inherently entertaining." I'm only about 100 pages into Strong Magic, but I don't think that Ortiz's premise is that magic is inherently entertaining, so we should toss all the presentation. And I don't think he slights presentation at all. So far, he's been talking about maximizing the magic itself by addressing the key aspects of what makes a magic effect stronger. When he's discussing the inherent entertainment value of a mystery and why a mystery/magic is entertaining, I think he's leaving presentation out of the equation except in the context of the tools you can use through the presentation to maximize impact. You're right, he's not providing funny jokes for you to use in your presentation, but his advice seems very helpful: make your magic stronger, and throw out anything that weakens the magic. Now, he does concede that it's up to each artist to decide: Do you go for a laugh that may distract from the impact of the effect, or do you throw out the joke so that the mystery is stronger. That would depend on how you present your character and your magic---perhaps that's where Maximum Entertainment steps in. Sounds like both can help with different aspects of a performance. I'll reconsider as I read more, but if Ortiz states magic is inherently entertaining, I doubt that he means all magic is inherently good, strong entertainment.... ps: I'd also consider that Ortiz was writing to an audience of people in the know. People who already know that "the magic is YOU, not the trick." However, often those people (me) need to be given the practical advice re: what makes one effect stronger than another, and how to make a magic trick's "inherent entertainment value" (however small) greater. |
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stevesmagic Regular user 179 Posts
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Well said, I fully recommend Maximum Entertainment by Ken Weber, fantastic book.
to the blue sky at the top of the hill...
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stevesmagic Regular user 179 Posts
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Still waiting , perhaps I'll get it by next Christmas, I do think Kaufman perhaps should have pointed out the delivery time.
to the blue sky at the top of the hill...
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Hoggle New user 77 Posts
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People will like YOU better if you entertain them with MAGIC. MAGIC does not need YOU to help it out. It is inheritly entertaining. I hate it when people say the magic is YOU. It is not. You are of no relevance or interest to strangers. People who say the magic is YOU and don't "show off" with magic don't get it. Its the other way around. Show off the magic. People care about it. You mean nothing to them.
Merry Christmas
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David Nelson Elite user San Mateo, CA 404 Posts
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Hoggle,
Why does your signature refute what you seem to be saying in your post? You are telling me first that magic needs no one and nothing to make it interesting and then in your signature you are telling me to make the magic interesting. I am so confused. Dave |
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stevesmagic Regular user 179 Posts
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Hoggle, you really need to read these 2 books,Strong Magic and Maximum entertainment.
I very much doubt you'll stand by those words after reading them. Presentation is so very important. Yes you might entertain a work mate or family with a 'trick ' but try something more than a packet trick without presentation and you'll fall flat on your face.
to the blue sky at the top of the hill...
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Hoggle New user 77 Posts
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David and Steve
I have read both Strong Magic and Maximum Entertainmen and Mastering The Art Of Magic, and... I even love Borodin's book (full of storytelling magic) All I have to do is smile, display a coin, then vanish it and a child smiles. "Do that again!" they say. Magic is inheritly entertaining. As for my signature, I can see how you interpret it that way. It is actually a quote from a post here dealing with picking up girls. "Magic does not make you interesting" it meant, basically, that as magicians we have a duty to the ART of magic to sculpt the moment, not to use it to hit on women. I believe in presentation as a tool. I also aknowledge that the underlying atomic effects pretty much speak for themselves. Many of them can be done without words, and are used in noisy environments or as a universal communication with someone who couldn't even understand the simplest "presentation" in your language. They do, however, understand magic. I would retract my categorical condemnation though, and apologize for being a bit too strong. Of course I use presentations, even elaborate ones sometimes. My point is that to say magic is not inheritly interesting is taking it too far. Magic has always captured the imaginations of human beings and it always will.
Merry Christmas
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Hoggle New user 77 Posts
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PS:
Look at page 131 of Strong Magic. Bottom of the page those last couple paragraphs. I just thought you should re-read this if you are going to bring Strong Magic into play. Please don't take this as a slam. Im trying to be helpful
Merry Christmas
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stevie1 Regular user perth,australia 180 Posts
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You'll be able to do that any week now Steve,how is your postie by the way
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Posted: Nov 25, 2004 01:39 am 
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