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Magicman8 Regular user Michigan 113 Posts |
I have the most basic cups routine. what is the best routine out there, in your opinion? And where would I get it?
Matthias
We go through life backwards. The past is visible and the future is cloudy, it seems we are walking backwards.-- Terry Pratchet
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Quote: Nowhere, you have to create it yourself using others works as the basics.
On 2004-10-25 07:39, Magicman8 wrote: The most common used as a basic is Dai Vernons.
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Three cups, two cups, one? Mini cups, Jumbo cups? Street work, close-up work?
Start sesarching the many threads on The Café concerning this, and you'll find the same basic responses there, too... There is no "one best" routine, as that is a matter of preference, condition, and your ability to present it. But for good basic routines, and definite starting points, it's hard to beat Dai Vernon's routine or the routine written in Mark Wilson's Encyclopedia of Magic.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-10-25 07:48, Werner G. Seitz wrote: While it is true that he is unlikely to find the Best this way, it is equally untrue that someone who can do only the basic simple routine can make up a decent one on his own. The odds are that if he threw some moves together, it would not be very good. He needs to look at some great routines, and work with some of them first. Even if he gets Ammar's great book, filled with the sleights and moves of great routines, if he just tries to stick them together it would likely be a mess. It is OK to work on a famous routine for a while, look at what makes it work. Learn the routine well, perform it for audiences and see how and why they react to various parts. Study other routines and learn why they work, and then down the road, maybe a year or two from now, develop your own. I suggest Vernon's as a good start. You can get that on Ammar's books and DVD's.
Chris
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Almost-A-Magician Regular user New England 158 Posts |
Good point on the difficulty of creating your own routine as a begginer...I wasn't able to. Don't know if these are the best, but this is how I started, and it seems like a good learning progression (I am still learning!) Started with the Mark Wilson Routine from his course in magic book. It provides a nice sequence and covers many basic moves. Then I learned Rafael Benatars' routine from his video, which I REALLY like, and have had good reactions. It provided some new (to me) moves and sequences. That is what I am doing today. Please keep in mind that this happened over the course of 3 years...I found that it took that long to really get it. Next I hope to learn Ammar's routine....have found both the book and videos of his to be excellent. After that, maybe I will be ready to construct my own routine.
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
I want to say that I may be misunderstanding Mr. Seitz's comments. He may well be implying that the basic Vernon routine is where one might start. So if that is what you meant then I am in agreement.
Chris
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Quote: No problem...
On 2004-10-25 08:48, chrisrkline wrote: It is eaxctly what I meant.. One, of course, HAS to start somewhere and practise/work with a basic routine, no matter which, and, what I recommeneded WAS Dai Vernons, for a start. One either can't of course, improve or in this case rather alter, a such routine, BEFORE one is accustomed to the thoughts behind it and as well has done it before real ppl in real life for quite some time.. After some time, one normally finds out, what doesn't *float* smoothly enough in ones own handling or what doesn't register well at ones audiences, IN ONES OWN HANDLING! Dai Vernon did and developped that routine for his own use and it also wasn't just *ready* overnight.. One of the very best C&B workers ever, living here in DK, who can hold up to anybody in the world re C&Bs, ALSO has Dai Vernons routine as a basic. Others, like Tommy Wonder, don't at all use DVs routine as a basic, neither did Johnny Paul or Fred Kaps (who used Irelands routine as a basic), but note the funny thing..all the above mentioned performers, very very good performers, don't use the crochet covered balls, but do use spongeballs.. Absolutely nothing wrong with this..their routines are tops in handling and entertainment. The above mentioned are the ones that REALLY worked on the premise of the C&B and made up THEIR routines entirely by themselves.. THAT is the final step, but that step is soley for those working the stuff each and every day before paying audiences..it would take a very long time, for others to develop their entirely OWN routine, NOT based on any of the ones in existance, and IMHO, it neither is needed to be that exceptional. Ppl like Tommy Wonder and Johnny Paul, have always been special and it would be very difficult to just touch their socks re the stuff they do and did, they did it all their life.. As earlier mentioned, the very best re C&B I've ever seen, using crochet covered balls, still has DVs routine as a basic, but what he does, is not at all a copy of DVs routine..and so shouldn't yours be, AFTER years of working on it.. I don't do the C&Bs anymore because of simple reasons.. I have seen the best..and I can't compete and I don't want to copy.. Also - and this is the main reason - I sensed it to be too confusing for too many specs with not that high an intellect then the giftetd specs , and this means, the C&Bs CAN be very confusing to follow.. So I settled for a simpler premise.. I love basically Roy Bensons concept with a single Bowl instead of a cup and 3 sponges.. This gives actually more room for the specs to interact, to hold the sponges and even here to do a final load that gives them the surprise needed.. And..most important, that routine is easy to follow for each and everybody.. BUT, I would never diminish the C&B, it is a classic and will always be, one prob though is, most performers are *ON* with it for too long a time.. Good there finally is a surprise..the final loads, otherwise I'm sure most specs wouldn't care anymore where any of the balls is at any time!!!! Without the final loads, one might as well forget the routine, the specs have falling asleep in most cases anyway.. Keep it simple..and here the prob is for far too many good C&B workers..they want to do it all..include all the clever moves in existance..amd there are many!
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
jezza Elite user 469 Posts |
I use the one from mark Wilsons book of magic and it is superb (ive performed it 100s of times and it gets great reactions and is a well thought out routine)
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dlcmagic Special user 887 Posts |
Michael Ammar book and video on the cups.
Great information ! |
rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Werner, I've heard many people say what you just said, particularly about the routines going on too long. I've seen quite a few myself that was too long. I fear that the problem isn't that the routine went on too long but that the magician didn't think through the whole routine.
They'll start off strong, with good patter and a nice entertaining story but it degenerates to the ball is here, there, over here. The patter becomes one liners and soon monosyllabic grunts where the spectator just sits and watches the hands flying and cups smashing and soons begins to wonder if the magician is entertaining them or showing off, "here, there, no, here" No wonder the spec gets bored. I propose that if you think out your patter, then logically and smoothly move from one phase to the next, you will keep your spectator entertained for as long as you wish and the final load will not overshadow everything else. I just did a cups and balls routine 15 minutes ago where the final load, the final cup, was my mini-chop cup and I went directly into that routine. The spec loved every minute of it. I did put a lot of thought into the patter though and it's one seamless routine that lasts about 20 minutes. Of course I wouldn't do the whole thing in a restaurant or anything and in fact can't think of anywhere that it would be approprate to do the whole monster routine, but still, it's fun to know that you can and it will still be enterraining. As Glenn Bishop is fond of saying, "The magic is within the Magician", if you can keep that magic coming and not degenerate to a grunting simian then you can keep the routine fresh and fun. |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
If you can get Michael Ammar's DVD's and his book as a set, buy them. This has the basic Vernon routine as well as an analysis of things Vernon might have done differently, based upon interviews of Vernon by Ammar.
In addition to this, you will have several other basic routines, plus more moves than you will ever want to do in your lifetime. The DVD's have the bonus of some interviews with Bob Read that I found extremely educational and informative. You can't go wrong with these. Contact me in a PM for more information, if you wish.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
Another tape I found very interesting is by Raphael Benetar on the C & B.
Tom |
bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
The routines I have seen with the cups and balls... Johnny Platt, Johnny Paul, Dai Vernon, Jim Ryan, Terry Vecky and Galli Galli...
Entertainment wise the cups and balls if performed right will please and entertain any audience. Out of all these greats it would be hard to choose the best because it would be from my personal point of view. But the most copied routine or the routine that has had a great influence on magic would be Dai Vernon's cups and balls routine. I feel that the performance problems that many magicians have with the cups and balls are... Many magicians when doing this effect give a history of magic lesson to the audience instead of entertaining the audience. History is not entertainment... That they do the routine in a way that it stars the props not the magic The ball is here and now it is over here. Hard to get away from. And many routines go on for to long... Other's may feel different about what I have written above but we all have our own way of doing things and that is what makes magic interesting.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
You, the performer is "what makes the best of any routinie" -- study, play, study more, work, work more and one day... it will be there!
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Craig Ousterling Special user 585 Posts |
David Williamson has one of the funniest routines I've seen. The balls seem to come from everywhere as if the cups just keep producing balls while the whole time all he's really trying to do is make them go from one cup to another. I almost pee'd myself when he spit one out of the wand he was using.
Williamson's wonders is the book that has it. (I think it's also on his 'slight of Dave II' video) by the way... if you live in the bay area, he's lecturing in SF in November. ~Craig |
Ron Giesecke Special user Redding, Ca. 947 Posts |
I guess I just don't understand the tendency to completely rule out a historical narrative of the cups and balls.
Perhaps it is because most magicians suck when it comes to anything other than implausible patter. I would much rather hear Ricky Jay expound on the Valley of the Kings than someone else try to convince me that the cups are "spaceships" and the balls "aliens." Sometimes I think anthropomorphising a silly prop can be condescending to a spectator who is too polite to say so--where a legitimate sounding explanation might actually be more impressive at the end. |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Williamson is just plain a riot. The most requested guy at FISM.
Patterwise I discovered that talking in a fake foreing language, ala double-talk works great for me. There is nothing worse than saying something like, "I'll put the ball here, cover it with the cup, wave the wand and..." BORING BORING BORING
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-10-30 00:12, Ron Giesecke wrote: The problem with doing historical narratives of the cups and balls is that most magicians don't know how to make that entertaining. Actually, most magicians don't know how to make ANYTHING entertaining. It's a wonder some of them have children.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-10-30 03:15, Bill Palmer wrote: Maybe they found someone that likes small fuzzy balls? (SHAME on me, bad Rik, BAD) |
Ron Giesecke Special user Redding, Ca. 947 Posts |
Bill,
I concur completely. And Pete: Right on the money about Williamson. I think anybody who tries to copy his patter without the manic front-loading would be a disaster. Ron |
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