Well said H.W

Yours in Magic
dr.strange

What I personally think when I read these kind of "criticism" is that they are taking all of this material for granted. They feel that as mentalists, we have access to every secret of every performer in the community. That is simply ridiculous.

Everyone should (and I hope they do) consider themselves lucky that Richard is doing this very big favour to us all and to even consider ourselves lucky that all of this material were being published in the first place because they were certainly not forced too.

If I had to give a visual picture of these "attacks" to Mr. Osterlind, it would be exactly as someone spitting in one's face that just said "I love you". Don't you find this ridiculous ? I do. Because the only reason probably these guys want and KEEP to share their great material with the community and most importantly their experience, is because of their love for what they do, the love for their fellow magicians/mentalists (even if they are not all perfect) and the love for this community.

I can't understand how someone who let's say has done absolutely nothing for the community can allow himself to criticize someone who has done so much for it.

Just my rant for today.

I guess I got worked up a bit over this...on to something else!

I have spoken to both Jim and Richard and it looks like Jim's wife, Sandra, is going to be mass producing the bags for the 7 keys routine. You can contact Sandra at Phoenix2658@aol.com.

Rick

As far as these elite groups go, I quote a famous movie,

" If it is elite and secret, it can't be good"

Thanks

Partyboy, you took the words out of my mouth.
Rick

I can't talk about elite groups, because any group that would let me in would not be elite. But I can understand the problem that some people have with such videos. Please read this whole post before responding. I have not seen the vids, I have them on order and I can't wait to get them.

Here is the problem that some may have: On this forum many a mage have in no uncertain terms have denigrated and belittled those who have stolen others ideas, then repackage them and sell them. I believe there was a huge problem with "healed and sealed" at one point. These same people who have been told over and over that you can't take others work without paying the original author can't understand how Richard can make money off of Ted's and Tony's work. They probably see many magicians here as hypocrites who give Richard a pass, while condemning them for a seemingly similar practice.

Of course, there is a big difference that is obvious to most people. For those who still have trouble seeing the difference, let me explain the moral difference in plain terms. Annemann is in no way harmed when a new spin on one of his methods is published. These methods have been used by thousands of magicians and mentalists for over 60 years. Annemann is dead. He does receive the credit for the original. His payment is the further respect by all who now benefit from his effect or method.

Taking a new effect and doing some subtle change or just repackaging it financially harms the person who came up with it and has generously consented to make it available to all of us for a small fee. These magicians are alive and need to pay their bills.

Here is a question you can ask yourself that may show you the difference: If you came up with a new idea tomorrow and decided to share it with others in the magic community, would you want someone else to copy it and sell it? A hundred years from now would you care if someone with honor and respect credits you with the first version of this effect and then will present their version of this grand old effect that has been previously published in no less than a dozen different publications and many different editions?

In logic we call those who cannot see the difference between the above guilty of committing the fallacy of the beard. We would all agree that if Richard didn't shave for a day or two there would be stubble, but when would the stubble become a real beard and not just stubble? The person who says thinks that Richard has committed some great evil is the person who sees one day of stubble and calls it a full beard.

Regards,

Brady

A lot of people attack Mr Osterlind because he's a better performer than them, he's more successful than them and because he's a better product developer than them.

In short, he's a better Mentalist and businessman than them.

I am sure that is true for some. It is just that the people attacking him on this forum don't seem to be in that league. I get more of the impression that if they can't steal someone’s material, no one should be able to comment or present someone else’s material.

They don't get that most of us own the Jinx and 13 steps and a lot of other material. It is not that material that we want. I wouldn't pay a penny for another copy of magician vs mentalist. But I would be happy to pay my $35 for Richards’s masterful handling of this classic effect. I have the instructions in no less that three different formats; I have presented the effect myself on numerous occasions. But I am looking forward to seeing Richards’s presentation and handling and I am happy to pay him for that privilege.

Regards,

Brady

I have written several posts to this topic, and deleted them again.
Why I did that?
Because they would have no influence on this, as refered to elite group, that on every golden opportunity are pumping out bad will and meaningless criticism .
However, I can’t hold back my opinion any longer

I have seen behaviours like these people’s before, - not only among magicians or mentalists, you will find such everywhere.
The reasons for such behaviour, is in my humble opinion just jealousy and fright.

This is a well known strategy to handle competition and the opinions and skills that are different and might be better than their own.
This is also a loosers strategy, - people who use it can only try to defend, but will not win or prove anything to anyone in the long run.

The following "law" was written by the Danish-Norwegian author Axel Sandemose in 1933 in his novel "A refuge crosses his path"
It could as well have been written by any of these eliteists critisizing Richard Osterlind:

1) Do not believe that you are anything
2) Do not believe that you are as good as us
3) Do not believe that you are any wiser than us
4) Do not believe that you are any better than us
5) Do not believe that you know more than us
6) Do not believe that you are something more than us
7) Do not believe that you are good at anything
8) Do not laugh at us
9) Do not believe that anyone cares about you
10) Do not believe that you can teach us anything




Richard;
I am certain about that you are aware of it, but so it is mentioned;
There are ten- and hundred folds numbers more of people that respect and support you and your work than the number of these protective and paranoid persons.
These people are NOT protecting or developing this art, they are hindering the development and progress.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they wish the art to die with them.

Keep up your wonderful work.
Your teaching and creating is a true gift to the magicians and mentalists in the REAL world.

Sven

I think it is very possible to have reservations about this release without attacking Richard or being jealous. I am not keen to see mentalism firmly entrenched in the magic world, I would prefer for it to be apart from it as much as possible, and I don't think the name of these DVDs is fortunate.

I do not have anything to say about this I would not say to Richard personally, and this opinion has nothing to do with what I expect the quality of these DVDs to be (probably excellent) and Richard's character.

I am deliberatly ignoring the ownership aspect as I don't understand the issue fully. If there is theft involved (which some people claim), then I think that is wrong. I do not feel ready to pass judgement on that issue.

Basically, I feel I can legitimately wish these DVDs had never been made without deserving to be called paranoid or jealous. I am certain many, if not most, of the people who agree with me about the DVDs feel the same.

I don't think this is a particularly black and white issue, and I would suggest everyone on both sides of this argument strive to remain civil.

The issue is not about fear of competition. It is about fear of the art being devalued and finally dying. Whether or not this is a problem (or even a correct perception) can be debated. What can not be debated is my right to be concerned. I find myself more and more convinced that this forum, despite the inner thoughts forum, and the thread about Mentalism and the café (stickied), is contributing to the rapid demise of the art of mentalism as we have known it.

/Bamba

I take the liberty to claim (-and I don't think I am very wrong) that 99% of us guys only doing mentalism today, originally came from "the magic world"
You will also find that confirmed if you scan the P.E.A. memberlist.
Many of these members still also do magic or mental magic.
- so what's wrong with magic???????????

That's your choice and opinion, and should be respected.


I have to remind you about that most (-if not all )of the material already is, and has been for years, available also to the "magic masses"
The news are Richards angles and takes on it.

I am of that opinion that secret searchers in common not are willing to pay hundreds of bucks for such materials.


- or it will, if no development, progress or recruitement take place.

Sven

I would just like to point out I don't think there is anything wrong with magic. I love watching magic. I do not have a background in magic, but that doesn't mean I don't respect it. One of my favourite things to do is watch a good magician perform.

The problems I have are about the associations percieved between magic and mentalism. I do not think they are fortunate or beneficial, even though the arts are in some ways related.

I do not think a magician can perform mentalism effectively without rethinking a lot of things. The fundamentals are very different. I believe most (if not all) of those who are succesful mentalists with a background in magic would agree.

How to approach this issue, and the perception of the potential harm done to the art, is where opinions differ.

I have no sympathy for the idea that magicians should "protect" people from "psychics". I also do not feel magicians are "entitled" to know the secrets of mentalists. This does, however, go both ways. I do not know the secrets of magicians. To this day I do not know what a topit is. And I believe that helps me appreciate magic. Why are magicians afraid of people appreciating mentalism? Now don't misunderstand me, this last paragraph has nothing to do with my feelings on Richard or these DVD's. But I think the DVD's may indirectly make the situation worse, although that is not the intention of their creator. Maybe it would be better if people who do not respect the integrity of mentalism do not have easy access to its secrets? I find this question difficult to answer with absolute certainty, but I find myself gravitating toward an answer in the affirmative.

I hope this is clear and civil, sorry if I am not expressing myself well.

Again, IF there is theft involved (which I am still not sure about and have no firm reason to believe one way or the other), that changes the matter entirely.

/Bamba

Bambaladam, you said : "I do not think a magician can perform mentalism effectively without rethinking a lot of things. The fundamentals are very different. I believe most (if not all) of those who are succesful mentalists with a background in magic would agree"

Don't you think that those dvd's and Richard Osterlind's advices and explanations could be a way to avoid that issue?
I haven't watched the dvds but if Mr Osterlind goes far beyond the "how to do that one" explantion (what I'm pretty sure he has done, knowing a bit of his materials)these dvds could be a real solution to the issue you fear.

Check!


I agree, but at what point did associations come into the discussion?


I couldn't agree more!

Who says they are?
However, if you (magician or not) are serious about studying mentalism to perform it, it should be possible to learn it somewhere.
I guess those possibilities were open for you when you first started, as they were for me.

You can count me in in the number of happy guys that know (next to) nothing about topits and alike.
However, I can assure you of that I one day found that a topit (whatever it might turn out to be) would do sensations to my mentalism routines, I'd give any of the major dealers a 911 call to get them to send me one asap, and preferably within the day before yesterday. I gguess you would do the same.
[quote] Now don't misunderstand me, this last paragraph has nothing to do with my feelings on Richard or these DVD's. But I think the DVD's may indirectly make the situation worse, although that is not the intention of their creator. Maybe it would be better if people who do not respect the integrity of mentalism do not have easy access to its secrets?
I got your point, and understand and respect that opinion.

Sven

That possibility is the only reason I do not consider this a straight-forward issue. My experience though, is that people tend to prefer to not listen to wisdom, which makes this kind of product unfortunate. I am certain Richard has made every endeavour to provide useful information. I am not certain the marketing methods or the target audience are likely to do those efforts justice. Hence my hesitation in embracing the release of this product.

There is something of a rash of mentalism itch running through the magic world right now. I think it needs ointment, not scratching. Again, this is just my opinion, I am sure others will disagree. But as the lines between magician and mentalist blur, so does the uniqueness of the art of mentalism fade (and I am aware each performer has to address this problem in his own way, simply bemoaning information spreading is not useful, I have my own plans for the future). Basically, the notions of restaurant mentalism or children's book tests are not things I welcome. Mentalism needs to stay the way Annemann described it, a "grown-up" form of magic. It needs to retain its potential for true wonder and not be a mere diversion. In a sense, I find it more ethical to NOT disclaim supernatural ability, but again, this is another issue.

Like I said, I do not doubt Richard's intentions, nor the quality of his work. I simply believe we have different perceptions of the situation, and different ideas about what is suitable. I feel I have the right to express mine.

I do find it alarming that so much material is being released to the market in these bad times for performers. The danger is that there may be no art left when the economy turns back around. Again, this is not directed to Richard. I do not presume to know his motives, and I do percieve a genuine will to teach in his works.

I do not claim to know all the answers, but I do feel that mentalism is endangered at present. I can only act upon that in the way I feel makes sense, and hope that others will agree with my point of view. Hopefully, my writing here will bring someone around to my point of view, or provide a hinge for someone else to explain the flaws of my thinking to me.

In any case, this needs to be discussed. And preferably in a level-headed fashion.

/Bamba

I beleive Brady has hit the nail on the head regards the concerns of some of those (not all certainly) that have questioned the release of these DVDs. In writing:

"These same people who have been told over and over that you can't take others work without paying the original author can't understand how Richard can make money off of Ted's and Tony's work. They probably see many magicians here as hypocrites who give Richard a pass, while condemning them for a seemingly similar practice."

He's got it. I know this through private e-mail correspondence I have received on this issue from several Café members (not PMs - the authors of the e-mails didn't even want to use the PM system for this conversation).

Its not professional jealousy or any of that...its, "How can he do that?" And I am willing to admit my ignorance regarding copyright law etc. and be corrected on the point, as I believe others are.

"I get more of the impression that if they can't steal someone’s material, no one should be able to comment or present someone else’s material."

I can now see lots of people now going over "classic" material that is now believed to be public domain and that one only needs to add a personal twist and make a DVD and off we go to market. And please...this IS NOT an attack on Richard or L&L! If what they are doing is legal (and I know nothing on that), then my applause to them for finding an opportunity many others missed and taking advantage of Richard's innovations and skill with these methods and presenting them.

"These methods have been used by thousands of magicians and mentalists for over 60 years. Annemann is dead. He does receive the credit for the original. His payment is the further respect by all who now benefit from his effect or method."

Unfortunately, this doesn't do it for me. Annemann may have passed on, but others who have BOUGHT the rights to the material are just as entitled to protection from copying and misuse - neither of which I am saying happened here...I don't know. Just pointing out that the passing of the originator does not change things much. I hold copywrite on my father's book and his passing DOES NOT make the work public domain.

"Here is a question you can ask yourself that may show you the difference: If you came up with a new idea tomorrow and decided to share it with others in the magic community, would you want someone else to copy it and sell it? A hundred years from now would you care if someone with honor and respect credits you with the first version of this effect and then will present their version of this grand old effect that has been previously published in no less than a dozen different publications and many different editions?"

Similar red-herring argument, unfortunately. The question is not what *I* would feel 100 years from now, the question is how the original authors would feel, and they are not here to ask. If they chose to only release 50 copies of an effect and then have it die with them, that would be there choice.

I respectfully ask Richard and L&L to see that this is NOT a clear-cut issue in the eyes of many prospective customers. And those who are not clear on it are not necessarily stupid, jealous, or anything else...its just not clear and looks similar to misuse of material that has been discussed at length elsewhere on these boards.

To me, a comprehensive response would include mention of those that currently hold copyrights on the material and why this use of the material is legal and ethically justified.

- Greg Owen

considering there has been 9 volumes of Ammar Easy to Master Card Miracles, all done on the same idea of teaching classics that don't belong to the performer on the Dvds, I guess L&L Publishing know what they're doing and have payed the rights for it or something like that.
I guess if they were not doing this, there would have already been legal issues raised by the owner of the routines on Easy to master card miracles.

Well, though there is still disagreement, at least now the conversation has taken a more civil tone, as it should be.

Here's a thought. If those among the hyper-elite that feel that Richard has done such great harm to mentalism, then someone please explain to me why you can find the sacred texts of Corinda in clown/gag stores, and Anneman in Barnes and Noble, Waldenbooks and every other public forum...why isn't there the outcry against that!?? It seems to me that if anything is being put out into the hands of the world, it would be on those levels.
(By the way, could you really just see some clown at a kid's show doing a center tear routine?)

Rick

John Clarkson... are you out there?
DaveS

I'd rather keep the civility going thanks.