Hello everybody,

Just a question: I often read: "I am a beginner", "I am an intermediate" etc... How do you define one's level? What makes a beginner jump to intermediate? And then to advanced? What criteria are you taking into account?

This post might seem funny to some, but I feel there is a big misunderstanding around these notions. I mean anyone can claim to be this or that; Am I advanced because I perfectly execute a sylvester pitch or a muscle pass (that's an example)?

As far as I am concerned, I would say I'm an intermediate. But I acknowledge I'm not basing this assertment on anything solid; I'm just considering the routines I perform, the sleights etc. But... I might be overestimating -or underestimating- myself.

So... Are there any specific areas to help one define his/her true level, or is this another obscure concept?
Please clarify this a bit for me.

Thanks a lot.

Phedon

Phedon,

I too am a beginner.

I am surprised by much of what I find, and enjoy finding things.

Just yesterday I discovered that the idea producing silver coins, then changing them to chocolate coins had been explored by someone over fifty years ago. I was a bit crestfallen, then amused that the person doing this was John Ramsay.

I'm still working on the basics and enjoying the process.

If everything there is to know were an ocean, I would not know enough to cover the bottom of a small cup.

Jonathan,

If you are a beginner, then... what am I?

By your posts on this forum I am certain you're as modest as you are talented. And that's the greatest thing one can be.

But... You're no beginner, even if you still practice your basics and discover new things.

Hence my question: what makes us intermediates, advanced etc.? When can one consider he/she's not a beginner anymore?

Tough question apparently... I guess there are as many answers as there are readers.

Beginner, intermediate or advanced are meaningless terms. Generally speaking they refer to are you just starting out in magic, are you well read regarding history and basic sleights and principles or are you into the more technically advanced or inventive side.

Again, they really mean noting other than to the person saying them. I have been in magic for thirty years + and I always hope to be a beginner. I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Townsend on that point.

Even today I can look at a "beginner's" book of magic and find a gem that is just waiting to be worked with, nurtured and added to my performance skills. Just keep on doing what you do and enjoy it. Never let the magician's hat get too small for your head, and you'll be fine.

Frank Tougas

I prefer the term "I'm still learning" rather than rating yourself beginner, intermediate or expert because in the road of magic, it is a never ending learning experience.

Thanks Jonathan and Frank, your posts confirmed what I was thinking... Everything is in the eye of the beholder.

Thank you for your help, and your humility commands respect.

You'd be surprised how many "professionals" have a rather limited knowledge of Magic. I like Roxy's attitude--we're all "still learning"--it's best to be "green and growing" because if you stop growing you (and your talents) whither and go poof!

Roxy has hit the proverbial nail on the head. I myself just consider me to be a life time student! If one were to be able to truly classify the difference between beginner and intermediate...my definition would go as follows....the beginner goes into a magic shop and leaves after having purchase 6 separate packet tricks. The intermediate leaves after having purchased a book with 6 card tricks! But that is only my definition!

Mike

I find it humorous when people call themselves professional just because they make a few bucks using their Hippity Hop rabbits at a children's show.

I think many people here refer to professional as someone who makes a living off of their magic. Does that make them knowledgable...no....does that make them experienced? No.

Jeff and Eugene handle a model (in their masterclass) that can be used. Notice I say it is "a model".
If you've got some sense of analogies it can help to point out where you as a performer stand.
I think it is described as well in the Mystery-School book.

I always thought that a "professional magician" was one that made their living at magic and nothing else.

Then again, maybe I was wrong.

Tom Wolf

When you stop learning something new in magic, that's the time that magic will not be exciting to you anymore...

I guess it's true to everything out there... When your not surprised anymore, when you start thinking like a "know it all, been there done that", that's the time your bored...

I guess we all want to stay beginners in order not to lose this amazemant, surprise ourselves...

Life needs spice!, and in magic, specificaly with the knowledge of sleight we can have, we just need to still be amazed and ask ourselves "D@¤*m, how he did that?!!!"

My 2 cents fifty...

Ludwig

Here's My two cents. If you know a lot of tricks and slieghts and can do none of them well, you are a beginner. if everything you preform is presented correctly, and you can preform your effects flawlessly, then you are advanced. See what I mean? it's not about how much you know, it's what you can do. everyone is still learning, but the more you preform the more you learn. the more experience you get, the better you will become, if you learn from these experiences

Begineer, intermediate and advance terms have nothing to do with professional (making a living out of it) and amateur...and of course there are beginners, intermediate guys and advanced guys like me...lol, no only joking.

But it´s true that you have to identify what area you are addressing to. For example, it´s different to asses tecnique than performance...

But, I can assure you that I can muscle pass, second/bottom/centre deal quite well, false dealing... and still consider myself a beginner as a performer simply because I don´t regularly perform in public and I don´t have well elaborated routines to link during a show...I can do lots of tricks but I haven´t put enough thought to create a program that can be performed for 15-30 minutes...why??? because I don´t need it...jeje.

I think there are two components to being a magician -- knowledge and experience.

Just as knowing a lot of recipes won't make you a chef, knowing a lot of secrets won't make you a magician. You have to get out there and perform, in order to learn how to present your tricks and handle an audience. Some techniques, like misdirection, can only be learned through experience.

But a good magician also needs to know the history of his/her craft, and have a broad knowledge of the means for accomplishing various effects. Otherwise, you'll waste a lot of time reinventing the wheel.

So I would say that a beginner has no performing experience and no knowledge of how various effects are done. An intermediate magician would be someone who can perform decently in public and understands the basics of most classic effects and sleights. You'd be advanced if you're working on very complicated routines or effects.

I don't think that technique alone is a good basis to judge. Someone who can do a muscle pass, but has no routine to fit it into, hasn't accomplished much. I don't have a good classic palm, but that hasn't stopped me from performing a good Miser's Dream. In fact, there were and are plenty of fine magicians who do no sleight-of-hand at all. It's the combination of knowledge and experience that makes them good magicians.

I'm a seasoned semi-professional amateur in the learning process. I make some money with magic, but I don't spend any of it

:hysteric:

Mike

Then the result of all this will be you're getting rich and fat..

In fact, there were and are plenty of fine magicians who do no sleight-of-hand at all.

They're called mentalists !!!

Mike

Yeah right, next thing you know we will hear rumors of three fly being done with billets, notepads and clipboards.