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Jonathan Townsend
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The poo poo bunch is just trying to scare the newbies away from the knowlege offered in the source books. Also scaring the feebleminded away from DOING the exercises as desribed in the source books and in the practitioner trainings that are readily available. From the doing comes direct experience. From experience comes incontravertable knowlege. You know how many fingers you have on your right hand. Were others in books or online to tell you differently from what you know for yourself, in doing so they would open themselves up to ridicule. Once you know a thing, there is nothing to argue about. Knowlege is like that.

There is a difference between book knowlege and experience. NLP is a field of hands on education. Repeating gossip or findings without specific citations does not offer the reader a chance to explore or learn.

If you want to see examples of several techniques taught in basic NLP, just in language, look for posts on the Café that respect other posters, open options, find new options and phrase things in positive language.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
trainspotter
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Rex,
My point is very simple, there are very interesting concepts in NLP, but somehow there is a tendency to make those concepts a trademark instead researching it and seeing how it fits into the existing scientific carcass.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2004-12-09 05:45, trainspotter wrote:
...seeing how it fits into the existing scientific carcass.


Last I heard, science was very much alive.

In a social sense, science is an open club where folks add to what is known and refine descriptions of what has previously been identified. Science itself is focussed upon a process of observation, experiment design, hypothesis testing and verifying published reports.

I hope science is not dead and all we are left with is a carcass of books and white lab coats. That would make a good premise for a story though. What killed science. A mystery perhaps?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
trainspotter
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English is not my native language.
When I said carcass I ment framework.

Cheers
bobser
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Jonathan Townsend. How is it you've had 6,132 posts, which I calculate to be more than everybody in here put together since The Magic Café began!!!!!!!!

And I've never even heard of you!!!!!!!!

What is going on???!!!
Helloooooo??????

I put it to you that YOU invented NLP and somehow you've managed to fiddle with either the 'shown' post numbers, or our minds!!!

Anyway, nice to meet you.
Bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Jonathan Townsend
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Hello Bobser,

I saw the NLP books when they were published, and again in college and dismissed the subject after a quick scan of the Grinder/Bandler books. To me, they read like the witchcraft books I came across in high school. My loss. I walked past them in Barnes and Noble Book Store several times and ... saw them as a self help fad. Even the acting students in college did not convince me. about 20 years later, I found the stuff when looking into salesmanship, persuasion, hypnosis, body language, subjective reality... and they all converge on what we call NLP. If you want to learn a bit about NLP, those books are fun... just remember they are seminar transcripts and you have to DO the exercises. When I got to anchoring, I found it worked and enjoyed reading more. Reframing has proven useful for me. Or atleast the parts of me that are paying attention and not on vacation somewhere.

If you have any friends who do coins, you can ask them about what I did invent. Also there is some older stuff in Harry Lorayne's magazine Apocalypse.

With good intent

Jon

PS, also surprised about that post count.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
peterng25
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The confusion about NLP is to type it as a scam that promises to turn you into competition for Einstein, Tiger Woods,...
Actually NLP promises to teach the average person to emulate the successful. Example: I use it for many sports activities, and does give me shortcuts so I can perform to my personal best in pretty much any fields, in a much shorter time. In the sport where I perform naturally at my best, I don't really need it much. But, that's OK, NLP is a clever psychological insight that can help you greatly, it just won't turn you into something you aren't
John LeBlanc
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Quote:
On 2004-12-13 01:28, peterng25 wrote:
But, that's OK, NLP is a clever psychological insight that can help you greatly, it just won't turn you into something you aren't


Actually, NLP is based on the study of subjective experience. I find it amusing (as I do most irony) that there have been so many answers to the original question.

If there is something NLP is, it's that it allows for the possibility that a person may become something they are not, but wish to be. Subjectively speaking, that is.

Unfortunately for some the effects of studying NLP is a lot like drinking alcohol; it tends to amplify their natural social proclivities. And often that's just not pleasant to observe.

John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.

"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
Ian Broadmore
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I have a private video of Richard Bandler that was taken during a private lecture in the states way, way before NLP and he was even publicly known, in fact he had just literally started to show it. In the video Richard say " NLP does not exist!, its all in the mind". Read between his words and you will see what a clever guy and businessman he is!!..
John LeBlanc
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Quote:
On 2004-12-14 06:00, Ian Broadmore wrote:
I have a private video of Richard Bandler that was taken during a private lecture in the states way, way before NLP and he was even publicly known, in fact he had just literally started to show it. In the video Richard say " NLP does not exist!, its all in the mind". Read between his words and you will see what a clever guy and businessman he is!!..


I can't imagine why anyone would have taped Bandler before 1975, but I suppose it's possible. I find curious the notion that Bandler would have stated NLP doesn't exist if this was done "way before NLP".

Many years subsequent to NLP getting out of hand, in a workshop he stated:

Quote:
It's one of the nice things about making up a field: you can't be wrong. I recommend you all do the same. I know there are some people don't have that kind of creativity so they started doing things like...I made up neuolinguistic programming so I could do whatever the () I wanted. And if you use it that way I'm going to give it to you.


And he did.

One thing I've noticed from the opening volley of Structure of Magic through Persuation Engineering, Bandler has consistently walked his talk in his manner of communication. I've found studying him is nearly as much of an education (certainly more fun) as studying the books or attending workshops.

John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.

"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
xersekis
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I knew RB for many years and we worked closely with each other at one time. There is a level of understanding what he means we he makes statements and why he makes statements.

The reasons are as interesting a subject of study as are the statements themselves. NLP is all lies - is often quoted but the end part rarely played out - "but useful assumptions" or "presuppositions" or "useful operating principles" meaning generally don't get religious about them - they are descriptors and as descriptors they are incomplete. The whole thing can not be meaningfully expressed in a meaningful way hence they are the best we have. They are equations which when put into pratice will work and can work systematically but can not necessarily be explained to anyone's ultimate satisfaction. 'Lies" meaning - not the kind of untruths you tell when you are caught doing something - but answers scientists, linguists, etc. make up (based on evidence) to explain the workings of things or the universe - but should never be wholley swallowed as compeltely factual and complete. They are incomplete versions of reality based on the subjective perceptions of those making the useful presuppositions - but nevertheless we can utilize them everyday.

Science does this all the time. It replaces theories with newer updated yet incomplete theories - and what went before and the discoveries made and the scientific improvements still remain - they don't go out of exisitnece because a theory falls out of current political popularity or that newer evidence leads ones to think in new areas.

We stove to make and utilize models in NLP - not theory. Models - working structures that can be replicated for the same or similar results - like a recipe. A recipe isn't a theory - but a formula for getting something - an end result. Our thinking is you can work both ways - follow the steps and you get a cake - find a cake - examine it, take it a part and you get the ingridients and ultimately the steps in the sequence they need to be in - in order to make the cake.

For example it does no good to cook the eggs first before mixing the mix. So our work in NLP was about models. Never meant to be complete - since no model is a complete representation of that whihc it models. NO map is a 100% accurate representation of the area it represents. Neither can anything that we come up with or put together be 100% hence the lie statement. It is designed to steer people into useful ways rather than having them accept things that we didn't mean for them to accept.

I don't see why these concepts are so difficult for some to grasp - well I guess I actually do - but nonetheless - these are sound principles and practices found not only in NLP but elsewhere.

Although NLP spokespeople probably give more crednece to the notion of subjective experience than some others.

And much of NLP quotes that I see quoted are not the original statements or complete as they were when first made.
John LeBlanc
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Quote:
On 2004-12-14 08:58, rex sikes wrote:
And much of NLP quotes that I see quoted are not the original statements or complete as they were when first made.


Of course that's accurate. A perfect example is the Bandler quote above about making up NLP. While those are his exact words and phrasing, transcribing what was said before and after would probably get me banned from The Magic Café. Smile

John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.

"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
shrink
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NLP is a set of tools and attitude. Creativity in using them is another matter. I know dozens of practitioners and trainers who just spout out "Bandler says this" and "Bandler says that". Some even make a living certifying others by churning out models facilitating workshops like cookie cutter programmes.

Yet if if provide themwith a problem they can't use NLP to solve those problems. ITS WHAT YOU DO WITH THIS KNOWLEDGE/TECHNOLOGY its about the results and creative use of the skills. The vast majority I have met don't seem to grasp this..

Its not about Richard Bandler anymore its about where YOU will take it and integrate into YOUR life.

Sure Bandler may be a genuis but he's also as mad as a hatter and I don't think is the best place to go to learn the skills anyway...
John LeBlanc
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Quote:
On 2004-12-14 13:49, shrink wrote:
Sure Bandler may be a genuis but he's also as mad as a hatter and I don't think is the best place to go to learn the skills anyway...


Now I'm wondering why you think Richard is "mad as a hatter".

John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.

"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
hkwiles
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Try reading "Monsters and Magical Sticks"

Howard
bobser
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Aaaaagh I get it now... this is the same as 'Fight Club'... yeah???
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
shrink
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To be honest I don't know exactly what to make of Richard. However from seeing recent videos and listening to recent CDS as well as talking to people who have trained with him I feel he is past his best.

There is also a part of me that gets the notion he is playing with his name to see how far or how much he can get away with.

He seems to waste a lot of time with long winded and some times pretentious stories claiming that he is teach his students at an unconscious level.

I have met many who have trained with him and they are amoung the most un skilled practitioners I know.

Perhaps he isn't mad hes just playing around..and having fun.
John LeBlanc
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Quote:
On 2004-12-14 14:19, bobser wrote:
Aaaaagh I get it now... this is the same as 'Fight Club'... yeah???


Well, it's at least entertaining to watch. Not that I'm saying there is anything to see. Only that if there were anything to see, perhaps it might be entertaining to some people.

John LeBlanc
Escamoteurettes, my blog.

"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
xersekis
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This is why I have my article about researching an NLP training to find the very best training available.

I won't get into anything here about particular trainers etc. only to say - you do need to do the research.

I worked closely with RB for number of years and stopped (my choice) by the end of 1994. So I have not seen him or spoken to him in 10 years.

So I definitely recommend investigation into those you chose to train you.

http://www.idea-seminars.com go to articles page.

BTW to understand the notion of NLP is all lies one needs to understand the epistimalogical roots from where NLP came from - Bateson, Watzalick, Chomsky, Erickson, Satir, Perls, Rogers, Faralley ,etc. Especially Bateson and the linguists.

A study of subjective expereince

One also needs to understand 'teaching by example - and covert teaching'

NLP is lies (partial quote) is a generalization and all generalizations ultimately collapse on themself taken far enough to the extreme. A point made while applying therapuetic models or linguistic distinctions known as the meta model (and milton model). These models look at how we speak and break down our utterances into distinct categories of linguitic represntation and look for what is represented or not represented in the structure of the utterance. The spoken (surface structure - that which the speaker knows he repreents) and the deep sturcture (all other unconcscious presuppostions inherent in the structure of the utterance) and how utterances and thinking (thoughts) differ fom outer world realty. Hence - the study of subjective expereinces.

In otherwords how we use langaugae to hypnotize ourselves or others about anything. How we believe and represent what we represent -

all of this is well founded in transformational grammar - I tend to think NLP represented a major leap toward making it accessible to the therapuetic community first and later to business and everyday individuals.

Still it is wildly misunderstood and hence the reaso n why people mistakeningly quote and requote innaccurately the 'NLP is lies" statement and the like.

one should look into the book "roots of neuro linguistic programming" by Robert Dilts as a starting place for background.
JoaoPedro
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Can anyone point out some books or videos besides Luke and Kenton's work on NLP applied to mentalism? I'd really like to see what kind of work is possible with the use of NLP. I have developed some routines of my own using NLP patterns. But I know there's a lot more to discover, a lot more to learn. This field has an amazing potencial in mentalism and I'd love to get more ideas and concepts on the subject.
Thanks for helping!,
João Pedro
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