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Neil Elite user 486 Posts |
I fail to see the point in believing in ESP when there is no evidence!
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Bambaladam Special user 636 Posts |
For one thing, and this is the worst case scenario, trying McGill's experiments might help you understand what it is you're trying to create an illusion of.
In the best case, you may discover something useful. I don't see how one can scoff at the very things one is professing to demonstrate. It is fair to have doubts, but being unwilling to challenge them is very dull. Why do we study this art? As far as I am concerned it is to create moments of wonder. This is not facilitated by killing our own sense of it. Stay open, and your art will benefit. /Bamba |
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Do you have solid, quantifiable evidence for everything you believe, Neil?
I know of nobody, empiricists included, who have solid evidence to back their every preconceived view of reality. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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Neil Elite user 486 Posts |
I think that pretty much everything about the I believe in can be backed up with pretty solid evidence. I don't included political "beliefs" obviously as they tend to be mere opinions.
I take certain things as granted - eg I believe the earth is globe shaped but I've not personally seen it from space. I weigh things up as much as possible. Also not everything I believe is an outlandish claim already refuted by all serious researchers. I see no reason to believe in ESP whatsoever and I see a whole load of reasons not to. Maybe you have an example of something I believe in that is unprovable? I can't think of one now but I'd be interested to hear one and why it's comparible to believing that one can devine a card by ESP. Many have claimed ESP, none have ever demonstrated it convincingly. I don't doubt that trying it out may have some artistic/performance merit. |
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Jonathan1000 Veteran user 325 Posts |
Steve, you have a valid point, so long as you keep it in perspective. Not even the most extreme empiricist among us could possibly have the time to assemble quantifiable data to bolster every factual conclusion we reach about the world. I think I know the fastest route to the market, but I haven't timed repeated runs of all the different routes.
But those types of conclusions aren't in the same league with non-trivial things like "the shape of the planet" "does ESP exist?", and "Can people talk to spirits of the dead?". For the truly important propositions in life, many people -- Neil included -- can and do take the time either to review the quantifiable evidence directly, or read the accounts of trustworthy writers who have themselves reviewed the data. Jonathan
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals." -- Homer Simpson
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magicinsight Inner circle 4293 Posts |
Johne,
You are down by 17. You better put down those PK pens and sharpies andstart sneezing some more. LOL. Michael
“Belief matters more than truth. Every moment, belief in imaginary things alters lives while truth sits unnoticed and waits.”
—Hakim, Loreweaver |
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johne Special user 960 Posts |
I found a new forum...sorry, I've been busy cutting up over there LOL
John E. |
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alexhui Inner circle Hong Kong 1956 Posts |
Believing real ESP is better than criticizing it because audience always smell it. If you are performing an ESP effect but you apparantly do not believe in it, it's harder to present it well. At least the illusion is important.
Alex Hui
To support 100% honest and unbiased reviews: Donate by PayPal
For BRUTALLY HONEST consultation for your upcoming projects, PM me. YouTube: Alex Magic Review YouTube: Themis Magic World Instagram: @AlexMagicReview Instagram: @ThemisMagic |
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Jonathan1000 Veteran user 325 Posts |
With all due respect, Alex, I don’t buy your claim that believing in real esp makes your performance any more credible than that of a skeptic.
At the very moment you’re executing a center tear, do you believe that you’re actually getting the info via esp? Of course not. Like every other mentalist, you remain exquisitely aware of your own trickery throughout. So how does your personal belief that some people (other than yourself) have real esp make your deception any more convincing than the next fellow’s? If the skeptic happens to be a poor performer -- one who appears not to believe his own presentation -- then your conclusion follows, but in that case he'll stink whatever his beliefs. But with performers of equal presence and ability, one man's private belief that "others can do it for real" would not make his own deceptions more credible to the audience.
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals." -- Homer Simpson
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Valid points that I agree with completely.
At the same time, I might add the corrolary that healthy skepticism should not rule out speculation or lead to total polarization. When that happens, even solid evidence, if and when it appears, might be disregarded, as the individual has already 'decided' the matter. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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johne Special user 960 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-11-19 12:24, alexhui wrote: Jonathan...I think you missed Alex's word "apparantly" in his post. The performer can appear as if he believes he's getting the information via ESP. The acting is much easier to pull off if one "apparantly" believes in ESP. Simple. However, I would also like to look at this from a different perspective. Can't someone who doesn't not believe in ESP discover they have it? Their emotions would be much more believable. Example...have you ever seen someone (let's pull religion into this for fun) have a first hand experience of something that they didn't believe in? They can be much more believable in their actions than someone that has believed so long they are regularly professing things to you. A personal example I witnessed a couple years ago. Now, I don't know the term, but it happens when the Holy Spirt is so strong that when you are touched (not by the priests behind closed doors) you fall over an cannot move. My brother-in-law was the strongest skeptic I had ever seen...myself included. Well, it happened to him. I was easier to accept it from him, than from someone who has been a strong believer in this for a long time. My arguement is not to say he was hypnotised or whatever, so please keep the points relevant to what I have mentioned...the believability, and I think it is possible to have doubts about ESP, but still convince your audience or spectators you have some gift of somesort. We hear it all the time...the guy didn't want to admit it, but he HAS a gift! (I don't hear it nearlyl as often now that I'm married). Johne |
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Jonathan1000 Veteran user 325 Posts |
Steve --
Good point. There are numerous examples in the history of science of prejudice and close-mindedness delaying the acceptance of a new, better theory. Johne -- I thought my reasoning specifically addressed Alex's use of "apparently", no? In any event, it would certainly be an interesting act for a performer to appear to be a skeptic, but constantly surprise himself with his own abilities. But if he wanted to stay dumb for more than 2 effects, I suspect it would have to be a comedy act.
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals." -- Homer Simpson
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johne Special user 960 Posts |
LOL...you're right on the comedy act.
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