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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
Firstly I'd like to applaud Thoughtreader's post above... he's right on, in the fact that 98% of the "Magicians" that get onto this kick know only what they're told to believe and assume vs. actual hands-on investigation/experience. This has been my "Point" for years and yet Paul has summed it up in a manner not as likely to generate the smoke & flames my less "cooth" approach seems to generate.
Faith Healers or "Healings by Faith" are a tricky issue. I've personally experienced and witnessed this kind of phenomena dozens of times. Though the Plocebo Effect is very common and applicable I feel that this perspective is also a key "out" or "excuse" for those that prefer not to believe in or accept that some kind of legitimate metamorphosis (Healing) has taken place in someone's life. Now this can of worms is far too deep to get into but, we must allow room for those situations "Science" hasn't and cannot explain (and I can assure you, there are numerous individuals within the medical world that can tell you tales of such "Miracles" in which no guru or shaman participated... prayer circles, drumming, chants... sure! But not the Psychic Surgery or Erikson styled "Laying of Hands" thing we see on Tv.) I think it is most unfortunate so many of us fall prey to buying into a certain line of thought without taking time to investigate each and every side of the issue. Not just by reading books, attending lectures, etc. but by stepping into the areas we have question about. Experience being the only true teacher.
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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Luke Kerr Regular user 119 Posts |
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I feel that this perspective is also a key "out" or "excuse" for those that prefer not to believe in or accept that some kind of legitimate metamorphosis (Healing) has taken place in someone's life. Now this can of worms is far too deep to get into but, we must allow room for those situations "Science" hasn't and cannot explain (and I can assure you, there are numerous individuals within the medical world that can tell you tales of such "Miracles" .) The problem is the medicine is not an exact science like phisics or so on.There is no math function determining all and the factor that influences the health are in an high number. SO it is possibile that for a coordination of some factors(diet,lifestyle and psicology(that also stimulated production of some substance that can help sometimes)) one could find himself healthy or ill without a reason. This is possible. Heal one with a psicological effect,especially for some sintomatology. This is possibile. What that isn't scientifically possible is that one,without the aid of substances(they could be medicine or some substance with the active principle that the case need) could heal anybody only talking every time. It is possible to happen one time. Because it is possible that a lot of factor joint and the psichyc effect will be a lot stronger.But it is not possible to reply,especially with another person. |
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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
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I couldn't agree with you more. I don't understand where this "noble" gesture to save the world comes in? Perhaps from a desire to feel important. The people who believe will continue to believe and just find another guru to follow. I am suspicious of the motives of anyone who sets themselves up as some kind of saviour of the public. Me thinks they are doing this purely for selfish reasons and to compensdate for feelings of being inadequate. |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
Sorry, but I'm a bit confused with your broken English Luke... if you are saying what I think you are saying though, I'll merely recommend you read over Dr. Bernie Seagal's "Love, Medecine & Miracles" which addresses the power of faith, positive affirmation/reinforcement, etc. and how it seems to "go beyond" the limits of modern medical practice.
To Shrink & Christopher I couldn't agree more! My only "Issue" is that folks from either end of the issue, would bring far more benefit to the greater sum of socieity, if they'd find a way to meet in the middle; Agree to disagree but agree that both sides are just as "right" as they are "wrong". In my experience this is the reality of the whole issue. But then gurus, mystics, prophets and messiahs have been teaching the idea of "balance" for thousands of years and humankind chooses to ignore such elementary logic.
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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Scott Xavier Inner circle 3672 Posts |
Okay, Mr. James Randi never exposes the methods. Go on hois site and try to find one magic trick exposed. He may state its cold reading or a blindfold routine, but how it is done, is never told. As for thiago, he is exposing the tricks themselves? If so its a little shadey. Any time someone claims to be authentic this or that ie. Geller he is hurting magic. I think only the weak minded and those needing some attention will ever follow them, and in this society of think for me's, we have to stop this fakery, besides, it gets high ratings. Thiago should have done this in a more classier way, however he is making some money via magic......
Did anybody see Ian Rowlands exposures on tlc? We do this with the least exposure neessary, so when we do the larger effects, its still mystifying. Rowland didn't expose anything too awesome, just one mans way of performing these effects, which would create some great misdirection if you performed them another way. Just one psychics gripes... |
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Luke Kerr Regular user 119 Posts |
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On 2002-09-02 13:16, Darmoe wrote: If one believe that something could heal himself ,and he want to be healed,the chance to be healed increase. If one doesn't want to be healed is very difficult to heal him. But this doesn't mean that with faith you could heal one but that people in need of medical aid also need psicological aid. In addiction any assertion to heal somebody,like any effect that one could do(like the cold fusion) must be repeated under control. The non repeateable phenomenon are ,IMHO,probably caused by series of factor that influences the effect in that moment and in that setting. I'll go on reading this book(hoping that is not something weird and false like "Phisic's Tao" or which is the name of the book in english) Quote:
My only "Issue" is that folks from either end of the issue, would bring far more benefit to the greater sum of socieity, if they'd find a way to meet in the middle; Agree to disagree but agree that both sides are just as "right" as they are "wrong". In my experience this is the reality of the whole issue. But then gurus, mystics, prophets and messiahs have been teaching the idea of "balance" for thousands of years and humankind chooses to ignore such elementary logic. If you look one of my post you could see that i wrote that exposition is the last chance and it must be done only when not doing it could damage seriously someone. |
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Huw Collingbourne Loyal user Devon, UK 201 Posts |
You know I can't help feeling we might get some more agreement here if we used different words.
It seems to me that there is a clear difference between the gratuitous exposition of magical or mentalist tricks or techniques and the revelation of a charlatan. Unfortunately, we use that inflamatory word 'exposure' to describe both activities. As I've said before, it seems to me perfectly legitimate to reveal a fraud in whatever area of activity. For example, I can't see any objection to exposing financial, medical or journalistic frauds. Why then, should we have more sympathy for a fraud who appropriates the techniques of magic? Shouldn't we be all the more outraged that such a person would stoop to twisting our treasured arts for their own nefarious ends...? best wishes Huw |
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thiago Regular user Brazil 179 Posts |
Huw said it all
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Thoughtreader Inner circle Calgary, Alberta, Canada 1565 Posts |
Huw,
Exposure is exposure no matter what you call it. If this was a "fraud" then the police should shut it down and deal with it. A so called mentalist exposing those methods is still exposing no matter how he justfies it. He could have just as easily said "He uses trickery. I'll show you" and then duplicate the feat and say "I did what he did using trickery, but as a MAGICIAN, I cannot tell you how as it was using methods employed by magicians" at least he would not have exposed methods used. He didn't. He chose to EXPOSE!!! In regards to any fraud perpetrated on the public, they care about knowing they were defrauded, NOT the absolute particulars about it. If it was said that the guy was a fake and used magic tricks to fool people, that's all they really care about. He could have left it at that but instead chose to bask in his 15 minutes of fame. That's why he and anyone else that uses that approach is wrong and does a diservice to magicians, mentalists and psychic entertainers throughout the world. PSIncerely Yours, Paul Alberstat http://www.stores.ebay.ca/abstagecraft |
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Brash Regular user 149 Posts |
No offense to the people here. I can respect many of your positions on exposure in general, but unless you are fluent in Portugese and are familiar with the "psychic" in question, I don't think it's fair to attack Thiago in this manner. Certainly, I don't think it's right to judge him.
If Thiago had not used the word "expose" in his original post, would the reaction have been the same? Is it not possible to have a more reasoned discussion of methods for "exposing" fraudulent psychics without attacks? Or is the simple use of the word sufficient to elicit such a backlash that reasonable discussion is not possible? I think most of us would agree that there are cases where individuals who blatantly exploit others should be stopped. How do we do this? Demonstrate the same effect and say "it was a trick" without revealing methods? Doing such a thing invites such close scrutiny that it may well have the same result. Aren't we just debating degrees of exposure here? Just my two cents. Brian |
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Vision Veteran user London 395 Posts |
Surely some psychics do some harm, but seldomly how much good they've done is considered. That was my point, even though expressed badly.
I also agree with Brash, that it may be a bit unfair judging Thiago. I firmly believe everybody know where they stand and few will change their standpoint from reading posts here. I just feel that exposure shouldn't turn into entertainment. I understand Thiago as well, he got some minutes in the ether to show off. Anyhow this is my last post on this thread unless I'm inclined to protect or clarify my standpoint.
www.awonderfulmind.blogspot.com
check it out for new products. |
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Scott Xavier Inner circle 3672 Posts |
Well I believe exposure can only lead to new and interesting tricks. However, how many magicians did thiago hurt by exposing this psychic? How many magicians will go hungry?
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Vision Veteran user London 395 Posts |
I cant help myself...
How many of you were upset by The Masked Magician? Probably a whole lot, 'cause he was messing with YOUR territory, just because we're not ruining a magician's business this time doesn't make it right. Listen to my voice, breathe in, clear your mind... calm your senses... relax... relax even more... you're now in a hypnotic state of mind... you hear only my voice... give me all your money... lets all be friendly and nice to each other... You can now wake up. That's it, with my skillful masshypnosis we all become friends and nothing more.
www.awonderfulmind.blogspot.com
check it out for new products. |
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E-Leoni Veteran user USA 358 Posts |
Paul Alberstat , Daniel Young, Darmoe,
You guys are money. I couldn't have said it better myself. E-Leoni. |
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McCritical Regular user 156 Posts |
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On 2002-09-03 15:07, Dr_Zodiac wrote: That kind of nihilism plays well for the lay folk, doesn't it? You don't get more presents when you unmask Santa; and you don't get new tricks when you expose the foundations. Exposing a trick usually requires exposing a principle. When a principle is exposed, it weakens the effect any unique "tricks" relying on that principle. It also hurts the believability of new "tricks" based on those principles as well. Quote:
However, how many magicians did thiago hurt by exposing this psychic? How many magicians will go hungry? It sends a message to the audience that they're fools for suspending belief. Most audiences watch a magician to see magic, not sleight of hand. An audience interested in seeing fast hands at work would find a dance club a better bet than a magic show. Quote:
On 2002-09-02 14:26, Luke Kerr wrote: You wouldn't be thinking of Frifjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics"? |
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openatlast New user Shadow of the Castle 74 Posts |
It's hard to approve of contradictions...Performing mentalism on the one hand and exposing on the other.
I know you come from a different culture than most members of this forum. And we are all reacting to partial information. But even if exposing this shut-eye psychic is for the Greater Good, why are you performing your own effects. This implies "He's not the psychic, I am." or SELF-PROMOTION at the expense of others. I don't believe in robbing people, and if your mission in life is to right this wrong then you shouldn't be bending spoons or spinning pens with your mind...you are no longer a psychic entertainer. |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
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On 2002-09-03 17:09, McCritical wrote: I'm going to take on the role of Devil's Advocate here for just a minute... because there is some truth in what has been said re: exposure forcing "us" to come up with "better ways". Long ago when I actually did stright magic vs. mentalism, one bit I did and was known for was Cigaretter thru Quarter... then one Sunday morning I awake to a full color pix in the L.A. Times exposing the Johnson made coin I typically use. I had to think fast... in less than 90 minutes I was suppose to do a bit in the Close-up Parlor @ the Castle... Long story short I pulled together a "better" routine that blew everyone away... I performed the bit with the Times article on the table as my backdrop and closed with the line of "Now how on earth could I possibly do all that you've seen, using something that bulky and clumsy looking?" (pointing at the pix.) DO NOTE: I was NOT exposing anything... the L.A. Times did... I just turned the tale by creating a new mystery "Proving" to those that watched, that said explanation couldn't possibly be anywhere near the truth. I see in Mentalism an odd lethargy that seeks to defend to the death, our right to cling to the old ideas, methods and philosophies of our foreparents vs. moving forward. Yes, we do need the founding principles to evolve from, but if we are not capable of challenging ourselves, circumstance of this kind seems to lend to us just reason to create! Another perspective to see... when investigating someone of this kind (the sham artist)... is the potential for invention. Allowing the demonstrations we witness, to lend inspiration for creating something new vs. the normal run-of-the-mill explanations that we've heard over the past 100 years from every skeptic breathing. All in all, let's try looking at the potential "good" this type of situation can bring into our lives. [BEFORE IT STARTS... this IS NOT an endorsement for exposure (as some will undoubtedly attempt to turn it into)merely some food for thought.]
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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Paradox Regular user 178 Posts |
Thiago says something interesting. He says "My special was about mentalism--only performance--no magic secrets." Maybe it lost something in the translation, but it looks like he doesn't think mental secrets are magic secrets, or as valuable as straight magic secrets.
I met Randi at a convention. We walked down the hotel hall together as he fulminated against psychics AND mentalists (I didn't tell him I was one). Later, he did Out Of This World for my wife. An incredibly abysmal performance. Seems to me the man feels he's on a noble crusade, but he's really just an opportunist--a wannabe Martin Gardner. Another point. I'm struck by rationalists & skeptics simply ASSUMING that anyone who does so-called "paranormal" things simply HAS to be a fake. This is an unstated assumption on their part and reveals quite a lot about their stance. Believe me, those that expose "fake" psychics, etc. are sneezing into the wind. Believers will still believe. All the exposer's sound and fury signifies absolutely nothing and in most cases does absolutely no good at all. |
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Thoughtreader Inner circle Calgary, Alberta, Canada 1565 Posts |
Perhaps everytime we see a magician expose something of a "psychic" nature, we should expose something of a "magic" nature. Let's see what happens then, especially when you consider that magicians are "fooling" those people and in fact many of them are so incompetent that they ARE fooling those poor paying people into beleiving that they are professional when they are the farthest from it. That might be a lot of fun as well as doing some good to the general public by exposing the wanna be's for what they are - unprofessionals.
PSIncerely Yours, Paul Alberstat http://www.stores.ebay.ca/abstagecraft |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
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On 2002-09-03 19:58, Paradox wrote: I don't understand why one would be particularly "struck" by this. It seems to me to be a very obvious, and not at all unstated, outgrowth of a rationalist, or "materialist," perspective. Is it any more or less revealing than another person's unstated assumptions to the contrary? Everyone has filters through which they view their world, and my experience is that most people are pretty well certain that they have good reasons for these filters. I can only use myself as an example. I ASSUME automatically, before I test the experience, that what seems to be paranormal will be expainable within the context of known psychological or physical principles. You don't have to agree with this assumption, or even like it, but it is based upon a set of observations about the world which I think are correct. This assumption should more correctly be called an expectation, and there is nothing illogical about expecting a particular outcome out of an experiment. In fact, I think it would be nearly impossible not to expect particular outcomes. Having said that, I do very much think you're right about exposing not having any impact on the believer. Even more than that, I think the issue of exposure hits very much to heart of what it means to be a mentalist as opposed to doing mental magic. Although the two borrow from similar methods, they seem to me to share very little in common aesthetically. One presents itself with a wink and a nod, the other has as its point to shake the foundations of the audience's beliefs. To my mind, exposure is not compatible with this latter craft. Huw is probably right that one should never say "never" about exposure, but it doesn't seem to mesh with the kind of mentalism that I wan't to do. BTW, Thiago, I apologize for using your thread as a sort of soap-box. I haven't seen your clips and wouldn't understand the language if I did. I don't mean to suggest that you have been exposing. But thank you for waiting very patiently on the sidelines while the rest of us use your success to leap onward to a very interesting, neverending, discussion. --Christopher Carter |
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