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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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Au contraire. There is plenty of evidence, all of it negative. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Bambaladam Special user 636 Posts |
There is plenty of evidence of ESP. That is besides the point though. If I made my living pretending to be German, I would never say "there is no Germany". I would find that remarkably silly.
/Bamba |
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MentaThought Special user 615 Posts |
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On 2004-11-20 03:45, Bambaladam wrote: It would be more accurate to say, "There's plenty of evidence of belief in God as well as belief in ESP. At this point, however, due to lack of scientific proof the actual existence of ESP is as much a matter of faith as is the existence of God." Needless to say, the lack of scientific proof for either the existence of God or the existence of actual ESP in no way means either one doesn't actually exist.
"A good mentalist ... will teach you a miracle because he understands the subtleties ..." -- Banachek
"If this works it'll be BEAUTIFUL!" - The Amazing Kreskin on a stunning effect he performed on his 1970s television series (PS: it worked) |
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Bambaladam Special user 636 Posts |
There is lots of evidence of ESP. People debate the quality of it. Just as evidence of many things is debated. Don't confuse evidence with certainty. I am not aware of any scientific evidence of God, which is why I limited myself in that respect. If you wish to see evidence of ESP in a scientific context, the problem will not be finding any, it will be sifting through the vast quantities of it.
Remember, by saying you don't believe in ESP you are speaking out against thousands of test results achieved in every continent of this planet (with the probable exception of Antarctica). The problem is not lack of evidence, the problem is lack of faith in the evidence. I can understand why there is such a lack in most cases, but this is just as true in many different fields. I am not very convinced by many theories of psychology either. I don't think ESP deserves a special status among sceptics, and I think there is reason to keep an open mind (some of the evidence is quite compelling to me). /Bamba |
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brianp New user canada 25 Posts |
Great thread, Uri Geller was a great psychic showman, I remember his routines well and yes he did present himself as possessing real abilities. I doubt he would have had the same impact today because of the
huge amount pseudo-psychic info available on the internet. It is a testament to his showmanship that he still can create controversy. Randi is following in the footsteps of Houdini by attempting to expose fraud and judging by many of the postings on this forum and others... hasn't had much success. |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
Brianp,
Randi has had a profound effect on the way a large number of people look at the world. I'm one of them. And good number of us pony up dough to keep his work going. I don't know how you define success, but to me he has been successful. |
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Jonathan1000 Veteran user 325 Posts |
I'm right there with you, Todd. Randi's my hero.
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals." -- Homer Simpson
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Fernando New user 29 Posts |
He and Geller both have one thing in common. They are both great showmen.
Because of this I am now wondering if there is any truth in the allegations by Dr Magic about collusion. Personally I doubt it since Geller does seem very bitter about Randi. Hard to fake it. However it is not unknown for apparent rivals in showbusiness to invent feuds for mutual benefit. I remember David Berglas saying that Al Koran approached him once to make a similar arrangement. Berglas refused. I do know that this sort of thing does go on so I would be intrigued to hear what hard evidence Dr Magic can come up with regarding this. I am sceptical but am willing to keep an open mind about it. |
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Bambaladam Special user 636 Posts |
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On 2004-11-20 16:14, Todd Robbins wrote: So Randi and Geller are very similar then in their results? I would say Geller would have to be a better person though as he never tried to make it by putting others down in any way. /Bamba |
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Harry H Inner circle 1526 Posts |
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On 2004-11-20 15:14, brianp wrote: I think if you got to http://www.randi.org you will find much evidence to the contrary. His one million dollars is still unclaimed,his challenge has exposed many fakers in the psychic/paranormal world. |
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MentaThought Special user 615 Posts |
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On 2004-11-20 19:11, Bambaladam wrote: Some might say that by claiming what he does is accomplished by means other than what most people would term "trickery" that Geller shows contempt for the public.
"A good mentalist ... will teach you a miracle because he understands the subtleties ..." -- Banachek
"If this works it'll be BEAUTIFUL!" - The Amazing Kreskin on a stunning effect he performed on his 1970s television series (PS: it worked) |
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Bambaladam Special user 636 Posts |
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On 2004-11-20 20:25, MentaThought wrote: I guess so. I think those some would be misdirecting their attention severely. When it comes to "contempt for the public" related to deciet and trickery there are a lot of situations far more urgent to address. A lot of notable ones being politicians, corruption, media, religious leaders and so on. Also, the notion you express is only relevant if we assume Geller is lying, I hope. It would be sad indeed if it were contemptful to say what you yourself believe sincerely, whether or not it were true. And the story on Geller is apparently not settled one way or the other. It seems to me there are many still convinced he is special in some way. I salute his success. /Bamba |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
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It seems to me there are many still convinced he is special in some way. I salute his success. I must admit that he is very good at being a complete fraud. Of course, that is just my opinion. It is just my belief that he is a lying cheat. I state this in case any lawyers should be reading this post, don't cha know. He is carrying on in the grand tradition of great con artists of the past. Once again, that was just my opinion. |
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Fernando New user 29 Posts |
Actually Geller has mellowed quite a bit in later years. Less outlandish claims and I know he does a lot of charity work. He writes books and one of them on alternative health is perfectly sound and helpful.
I bet he would love to "come out of the closet" as it were and just act like a normal human being again. It must be hard to keep that act up for decades. Of course it is too late to turn back now. It wouldn't surprise me if one day in his old age he just confesses the whole thing was a sham. What a book that would make! A very good seller I would imagine. I rather like both him and Randi. I would love it if they were actually in cahoots together all this time. I doubt it though. |
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brianp New user canada 25 Posts |
Hey Tod and Jonathan1000
I didn't mean that Randi wasn't successful, career-wise, I meant he wasn't too successful at convincing the general populace that Geller and other psychics were frauds. BTW, I like the idea that Randi and Geller were partners, very funny. |
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Randi himself compared his efforts to convince people of his views as being akin to "shoveling water uphill."
Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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Bambaladam Special user 636 Posts |
Perhaps people don't want their sense of wonder forcefully and arrogantly removed from their lives?
/Bamba |
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enriqueenriquez Inner circle New York 1287 Posts |
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On 2004-11-21 13:48, Bambaladam wrote: Well, what make you think they have the right to have a sense of wonder? Don’t you see that they want that just because they are ignorant? Thank god there are people out there helping them. |
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Randi wouldn't thank God.
He's a humanist and empiricist. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
The whole Randi and Geller working together idea is a pretty old one and a rather laughable concept if you knew either one of them.
The magic community really missed the boat in trying to bring down guys like Geller, Edward, Van Praagh, Valentino and others. If the IBM or SAM had given an "award of merit" to any of the pseudo-psychics, the press would have picked up on it and look upon them as just tricksers. They would have been professionally dead in the water. As for Valentino, if these organizations had given him an award for tricking the public into thinking that he had shown them the REAL secrects. The public would have thought that they had been conned and there would have been a press backlash that would have ended the masked magician series after the first special. |
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