Good post, Chad. I really hope I still have time to learn a trade, even a trade besides magic. And I think that the death of the apprentice system is quite sad. College is great but it can only teach you so much.

Chad, that post was really really brilliant.

marty.sasaki,i really injoyed your post and it really made me think,i don't completly agree with it, but I'm very thankful that I got to read it.

every time I read something like this tho I feel the need to warn beginners and those who have lived in torment with their own lives many years doing something they don't love or even hate to just get crumbs of what they do.

I want to warn them of loosing their faith in our trade and feeling the need to go to a more popular and more accessable trade instead of their lifes work.

spending their lives making something or someone else great and putting what they think is important second.

you see we only get so long to be alive and master our work and deliver it to the world. if you spend your life on a assembly line to earn that "extras cash" so you can get around better magic that you don't have time to practise or do any way because of your real job, you're cheating yourself and worse yet your community.

long story short, have faith in our trade and don't believe them when they tell you what you do isn't worth anything....it's them that are ignorant just because they're a majority here doesn't make them intelligent.

if a bunch of people told you that you don't need to read that wouldn't mean they were more educated then you, quite the opposite.

so why fall for this?

I would rather fight to do what I believe in for the rest of my life.

I will not compramise my lifes work....only my spelling, gad it's bad isn't it.

That was beautiful Jimmy!

I'm still learning and haven't really got out as much as I'd like but yet people still are telling me to think about my future and when I say that I am they say this isn't a "real job".....this post reminded me that I shouldn't live my life the way others think I should..but I should follow my dreams and be happy..and also that this just isn't a way to make a living but also an art form that needs to be past down to future generations...

In a former life I did a bit of photography, so I'm most familiar with photographers, so...

One of my favorite photographers is Ralph Eugene Meatyard. Meatyard's real job was as a dentist. Perhaps he might have been able to make a living as a photographer, but his work is rather haunting, yet delightful, and certainly wasn't trendy for most of his career. It would have been hard for him to make a living doing his photography.

Another photographer that I really like is Edward Weston. Weston was pretty well known at the time, back in the early to mid-twentieth century. He was part of the f/64 group, and was a full time photographer. He really struggled to raise a family and survived by taking portraits of folks. He really detested this other work.

I believe that both photographers are fine examples of "artists" who succeeded in their art and certainly passed things down to the next generation. Even while pursing his art Weston had a "real job".

Meatyard could of left you and us more work and at a better quality if he would have went full time and spent his whole life. he cheated us.
;]

Posted: Oct 19, 2007 12:16pm
I should say that we should all heed the warning that Edward Weston or closer to home dai vernon have left to us that being so consumed with the art that your family suffers is some thing we should avoid.no question.

but where would we be as artists without Edward Weston,dai vernon,or vincent van gogh?these fellahs left a legacy for their families and the world. but I am not saying that a real job is the cure. marketing, change of venue, may be some answers temp. jobs if you have to now and again to feed your family and boost your magic business, but not a real job. a real job admits your not good enough to support yourself much less be a success. and embracing this is defeatest and at best nilist.

I really disagree with you Jimmy. Because you can't or don't want to do something full time doesn't mean that I'm a defeatest. I do a lot of things because I enjoy to do it and feel that I contribute, in a small way to all of them.

My goal in life is not to be an outstanding magician. It's to be an outstanding human being. I think you can do this in a variety of ways. You don't have to be a suffering artist to be a success. Who is to say that my destiny is to be a great magician, father, friend, son, etc.?

Of course, the converse is true, only the individual can really determine whether they should spend their time should be spend doing magic.

Point taken and a good one at that....for you.

but my concern is for the person who IS THINKING ABOUT SPENDING THEIR LIFE BEING A GREAT MAGICIAN, I don't want them thinking that our trade is just a hobby that can't make any money or that it isn't as important as any other trades.

I don't want them to waste so many of their years pursuing A "real job" and after many years too late realizing that this was a huge mistake. this has happenned to me and is happenning to a huge body of american magi. this misinformation needs to stop, because it is distroying peoples lives.

once again I get where your coming from,but this can seem confusing to some one starting out, they might say, "well I wanna spend my life doing this but marty.sasaki has given the impression that it can't be done and I should just settle for being a hobbiest and it's alright to think I'm real magician even though I don't work as one."

then these people go out for years after that trying to make enough money at their "real job" to buy a magic shop or a theater or a Café with a stage and it never really works out because in their hearts they're entertainers NOT HOBBIESTS or plumbers for that matter.

and then they find out "hey maybe it wasn't alright to think that", but they can never get those years back.

you see me and a lot of others over the years have talked to folks like you and trusted your opinions and it gave us a lot of hardships.

I'm not tryin to be a jerk to you, but please remeber that you came to a magician's forum.

most of us don't feel that magic is like stamp collecting.

some of us here even believe in magic.

Wow....this thread sure has taken a philosophical turn! Kinda cool really.

Regarding Marty Sasaki's comment about America being primarily concerned with the acquisition of weath & power.....well, it beats being poor & helpless. Europe is the 'specialist-artisan' world where proffesions are handed down and quality is all-important regardless of profitability or popularity. There are TONS of wandering, 'all-my-life-is-my-art' type magicians, street-mages and buskers over there. I've seen them. There are also a lot of them in the country which borders the U.S. to the North (real cold, strong beer....can't seem to recall it's name)In America however, our cheif buisness---IS buisness. On the up-side, this has netted us some of the greatest magicians of all time: Houdini, Copperfield, Blackstone, Angel, etc.. But unfortunately, the restriction of money-sucsess means that not many are willing to take on magic as their life's work.


And to Jimmy, Comparing street-mages to HOBBIESTS??!!? Ach! You wound me sir! Take thy beak from out my heart!! A street-mage is presicely what a hobbiest is not....street mages have the guts and the 'street-smarts' if you will, to go out, do magic for passerby on the street and get paid (that is, tipped) for it. Hobbiests are goofs who buy a gimmiked effect or 3, and go around annoying people for free. Street-mages learn dozens of moves & effects, then go around ENTERTAINING people for gratuity

Mighty Fool,

I like hobbiests, I just don't think they should be teaching pros how to be pros or confusing would be pros into thinking they should be a hobbiest.

hobbiests contribute a lot to our art. and without them we'd lose a huge chunk of who we are.

when you say a street mage I'm assuming here that YOU mean those guys that are pretending to be tv magicians working the street for their tv show, but they have no camera nor a tv show.....funny street mage used to mean street performing magician. you know, a real one, not a guy doing it solely for HIS OWN EGO.

and I hate to break it to you but if your workin for tips you're busking.

and yes busking is a real job.

granted you maybe doing it in a way that is untrained, undisiplined and without intelligent structure or a set show [you know, doing it poorly], and sure you'd be on the bottom of the busker food chain,

but you are busking. albeit at a beginners level, but you are busking,

if your not doing it for a living you are a hobbiest.

you see a hobbiest is a guy who does it as a hobby.

a tv magician is a magician who does magic on tv for a living, even if it's being filmed on a street. like david blain or chris angel.

a street magician is a guy who works the street doing magic for a living.

but in pretend land he's a guy who's acting out something he saw on tv, like cops and robbers. AND HE WANTS IT TO BE VALIDATED BY "REAL COPS" AND "REAL ROBBERS". he wants to be called a cop or a robber too!

changing definitions, cultures, or any thing is only valid if it makes something better.

I don't hate what your doing it sounds like your just playing around in your spare time, I hope your having a lot of fun. I hope you keep the quality up in what your doing and I hope nobody takes me too seriously I just talkalot.

if you want to go pro I'll do any thing I can to help you

if you're good at busking you can make a living.

in some countries you don't even have to be good to make a living.

it's really not that hard to make a living at this if you put your mind to it.

and if you don't want to do this for a living, that's great too.

your pal jimmy talksalot

This is your fantasy. Buskers could not care less about guys who call themselves "street magicians" What annoys me, and most of the guys I know is the arrogant attitude of guys claiming to be "street magicians" coming to the buskers section and demanding to be recognized and respected and to that we say, for what?

Yo do not do what we do. It is like a mentalist going to the little darlings section and demanding respect there because in his mind he thinks he is their peer. We are not embittered, you are not cutting in to our hustle, your claims about working where we can not are laughable, as I know I personally have worked every venue you mentioned as a busker.

You have no idea about what it is we do yet you not only claim to know what we do and you seem to claim superiority. It is ludicrous. I haven't posted much to this thread because the claims are so silly. I don't care. Go show the unsuspecting card tricks and float stuff. I applaud your love for what you do. But do not come here and compare the two, they are apples and oranges. Nobody cares, you are not a cause of embitterments, you are a minor annoyance.

Best,

Dan-

Posted: Oct 30, 2007 8:48am
I would also like to add some comments about doing this full time, chasing a dream, being an entertainer, or being a hobbyist.

I chucked a 10 year career as a computer network engineer to do this. I was making A LOT of money for a guy with my background. Yet it was not a stable career. I could look forward to being laid off every five years which means every five years I would have to start over. Each time I started over I was five years older and my competition in the job market would be 10 or 20 years younger and work for less money. All I had was experience. I was a talented network engineer and I say that without a shred of ego. After 10 years of putting out fires for multi billion dollar a year companies I should have been talented.

I was also a talented entertainer. It was my wife and my financial adviser believe it or not who persuaded me to go into this business. I did not want to do it. My whole life My father (who was a professional entertainer for 20 years), my friends, and my family, told me that this was no way to make a living. They didn't understand that some people can do it. They played the percentages, and the percentages say that 99.999% of people who enter any form of show business end up heartbroken and bankrupt.

There are people in this world however that are designed to do something. I have always been an entertainer. I can not remember a time in my life when I was not entertaining someone. When I was a computer network engineer I was the most entertaining computer network engineer you ever saw. It is in my DNA and part of who I am.

When I chose to do this job (and it is a job) I entered in to it knowing that the skills I had developed over a life time, and the education I was afforded at a very young age until the present would stand me in good stead. I was not following a dream, I was pursuing a career in a field in which I had been highly trained. This is not to say that I went right out and made good. I did not, I struggled, and toiled, and was not very good at all. I needed to develop the act. The act is the product and no matter how much talent you may have until the product is of value you have nothing. I now have a product, actually several, and I am making a pretty good living with it.

I have also had to educate myself as a business man and I am not nearly as skilled in that venture and if I suffer a downfall in my endeavors it can almost always be attributed to this lack of skill. But, I am learning, and I am educating myself, and it gets easier every day.

But the bottom line is, I was not chasing a dream. I was (am)trying to make a living for my family, and for me, this was a worthwhile endeavor. If I had been chasing my dream I would be in astronaut school. Since I was a little kid I always wanted to be an astronaut. But for that job, it became very apparent that I thoroughly lacked "the right stuff". To have pursued that career path anyway, aware of my own limitations, would have been folly. Do not get me wrong, I love what I do, and I kick myself for not going down this path 20 years ago but, I sincerely believe that THIS is what I was meant to do. That is why I will be successful at it.

So if street performing is your "dream" but you are better suited to be an astronaut, call NASA and do this as a hobby. There is no shame in that. We can not be good at everything, and what separates the wise from the fool hardy is the ability to see the difference.

The best advice I have for guys thinking about going full time is to take a good long look in your spiritual and intellectual mirror before you make your decision. Be aware of your limitations as an entertainer and your abilities to physically do the job. Finally, have a fall back position. Have an education. A physicist, an English lit major, or a mathematician can be a fantastic street performer or entertainer. They can also work in their field of education. If you lack that learn a trade. A bartender will never starve.

But if it is only a dream and not something that you have a true aptitude to do you would be a VERY wise person to pursue it for no more than your own enjoyment and personal satisfaction. Because under the best of circumstances it is no where near approaching an easy way to make a living. That's my two cents.

Best,

Dan-

Posted: Oct 30, 2007 8:53am
P.S. Jimmy Talksalot, you are the best bro, much love, and MUCH respect!

Best,

Dan-

How can you tell whether you have any talent or not?

I'm a firm disbeliever in the notion that "all men are created equal". It simply isn't true. Just as there are differences in physical ability (not everyone can play in the NBA, or pitch a 100 MPH fastball) there are differences in emotional, spiritual, and the ability to entertain.

It would seem that with magic that some people can be superstars while others will face a long, hard, battle just being good enough? Or is magic one of those things where anyone can be great with enough proper effort?

I honestly wonder about this.

If magic is an art form, and I do think it can be, then living life and learning and growing, no matter what that means, has an effect on the artist produces. I'm sure that Danny became a better magician after all of those years as a network engineer (although I would be afraid to learn the details (just kidding, I've been doing software engineering all my adult life)).

Do folks busk do other forms of entertaining as well or do you only do stuff "on the street?"

Thanks Danny - That was a pretty interesting post.

My problem with "street magicians" (blain imitators - not real street magicians) is that there is a reason why they "mug" their spectators. They don't think about their magic or audience, which means they don't have the talent or care to actually earn their audience, or entertain them. There is no skill whatsoever in just jumping out on someone in the street and showing them the balducci levitation which was probably spoon- fed to them somewhere on a seedy magic website.

In any other profession, you are required to EARN your respect and reputation. Real street magicians (buskers) earn their respect by stopping their audience and making them pay, fake street magicians just get an audience through poor magical molestation.


Ben

Danny's two cents. Worth far more than that in my opinion. Thanks Danny.

How can you tell if you have any talent? Perhaps a better question is, How can you tell if you can entertain? I know plenty of magicians with talent who cannot entertain. Some have no desire to entertain. They just enjoy mastering the moves. As Kozmo told me, "I'm not sure you can teach someone to be a busker. You either have the personality for it or you don't." Danny is hinting at this when he says he has been an entertainer all his life. He was born that way.

Marty - Do buskers do other forms of entertaining? Do you mean other venues other than the street? Most definitely. I know buskers who do kid shows, blow up balloons, perform corporate events and do trade shows. If it pays, most will do it. Especially in the winter!

I am also a firm DISBELIEVER in the notion that "all men are created equal". in fact I am fanatical about it.

but just as there are only a few truely great convience store operaters there is still millions of convience stores to fill the need of the consumer.

Posted: Oct 30, 2007 9:39pm
One thing is for sure the u.s. is sorely lacking in grass roots art, culture, and indepenant creative exression in day to day life....unfortunately the u.s. is ingulfed in the business business. we sold our souls a long time ago.

and if your one of those who's gonna defend that popular culture amway, Michael jackson, top 40 garbage, don't gimme any of that "conservative" retoric because I'm a conservative and you ain't foolin anybody with that.

the main objective in the art, entertainment, and cultural expression industries in this country are to prepack, make plastic and make only for the popular masses who are being baited with candy instead of good scotch that takes aquiring a taste.

you see how are the masses gonna know the difference between fast food burgers and fine dining if they arn't provided with a choice.

I believe it is our obligation as american artists to provide this.

We need a new sticky topic in this section:

Full-timers, Part-timers & Hobbiests

I'll start the thread...Magic Café people make it stick at the top. This is an important topic that is constantly being refered to.

Nobody that busks regularly gives a rat's patutiy about Busking vs. Street Magic (David B style). Let someone else somewhere else discuss that and oranges debate.

Jimmy's comments on goin' full time is the real topic that most are interested in. If there is to be only one sticky topic on this thread, then that should be the one.

Get it done Green Machine!!!

To the esteemed Mr. Hustle,

When you say you have a problem with a street mage "coming to the busker's section", well, when I see a thread entitled "Busking vs. street magic" do you really think I'd ignore it?? This thread was started by a Scandinavian gentelmen....I have no idea if he's a busker or not....and I contributed (badly) to it. The very fact that this subject was started IN the busking section, and it's STICKY no less (!) seems to validate my argument that buskers DO indeed consider street-mages to be more than a "minor annoyance".

(I'm gonna regret saying that....now watch this thread get yanked or moved!!)


And regarding your comment "You have no idea about what it is we do yet you not only calim to know what it is we do and seem to claim superiority" If by 'you' you're referring to all street-mages in general, that's one thing, but if you're talking about me spesificly, then I promise you this is not the case. I've done plenty of busking, all over the world, and NEVER have I nor would I claim that street-magic is superior....DIFFERENT, yes, and it has some advantages yes, but it has more disadvantages by far. In fact, in my "categories" post, I call street-magic the 'rotted limb on magic's family tree'! Busking, table-hopping, children's performance, and street-magic....I've done them all. I would never prepose to speak about something I didn't know of....especially here where I'd get called out on it!

As for what I said about 'bitterness', well....scroll back & re-read some of the posts! Sounds a bit hostile to me!

To Jimmy, Speaking as a man created inferior, I agree wholeheartedly with your beleifs on the 'created equal' thing. And if that's you on the youtube vidclip with the ciggarette-pipe act, you have a first-class show!

Dan,

I just wanted to say "thank you" for that wonderful post. If I write another book as a follow up to THE MAGIC LIFE, I'm going to come to you for a background interview. You are a true magician.

Best,

Ace

Yeah, well, it was made a sticky by a moderator who thought it was important NOT by buskers. We could not care less. Sorry to disappoint but that puts you back in the minor annoyance category for most of us. Really, I don't think about you guys at all until you make yourselves known and tell all of us poor buskers how many disadvantages we having. You will not find too many posts by me in the "Street magic" section. As buskers do not usually go over there to tell you guys about how you are all jealous of us. See, we don't care.



You should only regret it because it's boring. Blah, blah, bla, blah, blah, who cares? Dan, I don't care, at all. Saying it is different than proving it. You are some guy with a fake name and no reel. You could be some 16 year old from Florida. Or you could be Chris Angel. Either way....sorry, I don't care.


Yeah, I'll be sure to do that right after my nap. This post has left me sleepy. Most of them sounded annoyed to me but if bitter makes you feel better about being a "street magician" go for it. I also work close up strolling magic all the time. I usually do it for big companies that are paying lots of money to be there but hey man, if you dig walking up to the unsuspecting passerby and frying his brain for free you rock on with your bad self. I applaud your love of the art as I said before. I just could care less as it has nothing to do with busking or what we are doing here. That is why I am not compelled to go to your part of the forum and talk about how embittered those guys are because they can't work a real crowd for a hat full of cash. I don't care. I think I can speak for most of the actual buskers here and even go so far as to say we don't care. We are doing something else. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. Good luck with all your endeavors, I wish you nothing but the best, I hope you get your own T.V. special and are chest deep in cold cash and hot super models for the rest of your life. SINCERELY, I mean that. I just don't care, it has nothing to do with this section of the forum.

All the best,

Dan-

Posted: Nov 16, 2007 3:52pm
Quote:


On 2007-11-10 11:44, Starry wrote:
[
Dan,

I just wanted to say "thank you" for that wonderful post. If I write another book as a follow up to THE MAGIC LIFE, I'm going to come to you for a background interview. You are a true magician.

Best,

Ace


Ace,

You are the best big daddy! Thanks for the kind words man.

All the best,

Dan-

Danny, Amen to that comment!

I hope you get your own T.V. special and are chest deep in cold cash and hot super models for the rest of your life. SINCERELY, I mean that.

All the best,

Dan-
[/quote]
.....well....I guess I'd have to agree with that!!

And I hope your hats are always full of cash, your pitches always full of specs, and I KNOW you'll get that Fanny Hall gig someday. (if you haven't already)