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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » For the record » » Card Moves, and Their Originators. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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irishguy
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On 2004-11-13 15:37, Eddini_81976 wrote:
Oh yes, another one I forgot which is strange since I love using this control a lot. The Side Steal. Vernon, or Marlo I think. I know Marlo has a booklet on it. Thanks Cameron. You're very knowledgable. Ed, (Eddini).


Actually, considering that Max Malini used it all the time and he died in 1942, I would imagine it predates both Vernon and Marlo.
irishguy
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On 2005-03-02 21:55, rogerfsmith wrote:
But Marlo actually developed the side steal into something that was useful. He called it the Technical Side Steal and that is what he taught in his Side Steal Book. The Technical Side Steal is far different than the classic side steal for the card is never palmed but transfered during a very normal squaring action to the top.


Actually, that was Malini's method. He never palmed. Merely pulled and flipped it to the top.
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From the descriptions I've read of the Malini handling of the Side Steal it was quite different than Marlo's Technical side steal. I no longer have all of my magic library, so its hard to research, but does anyone recall where the Malini handling was published, or if it was. All I can remember is a second hand account of someone who watched Malini do it several times.
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JimMaloney
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The Side Steal first appeared in two places almost simultaneously. Down's Art of Magic (where it is attributed to Downs) and Stanyon's Magic, where it is attributed to Leipzig. In addition, there's also record of Leipzig performing effects that we now know to rely on the Side Steal at least three years prior to either of those publications (ref. Stanyon's Magic, April and June 1906), and likely several years earlier than that.

It should also be noted that the Side Steal, as described by Downs (or rather, Hilliard), does not require the card to be fully palmed. I don't say this to take away from Marlo, whose contributions to the Side Steal are important, but rather to note that this grip is not entirely original with him.

-Jim
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Engali
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1) I'm fairly certain that Eddini is referring to what is commonly called the James/Eliis LOading Move. It was originally called the James Ellis/ Superrise Sequence.

And isn't the Bluff Pass attributed to LePaul?

*Engali*
irishguy
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From the descriptions I've read of the Malini handling of the Side Steal it was quite different than Marlo's Technical side steal. I no longer have all of my magic library, so its hard to research, but does anyone recall where the Malini handling was published, or if it was. All I can remember is a second hand account of someone who watched Malini do it several times.


It was published in "Malini and His Magic". It is Dai Vernon's recollections of Malini and his methods.
irishguy
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The Side Steal first appeared in two places almost simultaneously. Down's Art of Magic (where it is attributed to Downs) and Stanyon's Magic, where it is attributed to Leipzig. In addition, there's also record of Leipzig performing effects that we now know to rely on the Side Steal at least three years prior to either of those publications (ref. Stanyon's Magic, April and June 1906), and likely several years earlier than that.


Yes, I believe that the side-steal is commonly attributed to Leipzig. The methods have since varied, but I believe that he was the originator.
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On 2004-11-13 14:59, Eddini_81976 wrote:
I don't know, if anyone has listed a glossary here as in a post listing Moves & Their Orinators yet, in the form of a post.


Exactly what is an Orinator?
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Eddini_81976
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Well a ORIGINATOR, is someone who ORIGINATES stuff. Ed (Eddini)
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MueCard
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6. FARO SHUFFLE
Following Whaley’s Encyclopedic Dictionary of Magic (2000), and my notes here are the first three chronological references:
1726 Anonymous:”The Whole Art and Mystery of Modern Gaming Fully Expos'd and Detected” (pp.91-93).
1843: J.H. Green:“An Exposure of the Acts and Miseries of Gambling” (p.195).
1894: J.N. Maskelyne “Sharps and Flats” (p.204)

Reinhard
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13. Mexican Turn-Over Switch
Not first published in Erdnase 1902, but in Roterberg NEW ERA CARD TRICKS 1897, and in Conradi: DER MODERNE KARTENKÜNSTLER (The Modern Card Artiste) 1896. You have to know that Roterberg and Conradi-Horster cooperated
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Eddini_81976
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I see some people here are confused as to what move I'm revering to here...

"12. The Bluff Move (As Seen In The Early Ammar Tapes For The Yeast Card Trick. I Think Ammar Credited It To Tommy Wonder. I LOVE This Move and Use It In My A.C. Routine). "

This ISN'T the "Bluff Pass". If you have the "Early Ammar" Series, it is on Tape #2. It's basically a Card Change, but he says it's great to use on Hecklers. He Credits it to Tommy Wonder. I've seen Steve Draun use the move in his A.C.R. on a demo from his site. It's KILLER when to the A.C.R., I love it. They FLIP...lol, Ed, (Eddini).
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As regards to the Side-Steal, and from reading above, my gut tells me this is Nate Liepzig's move. He was more a Card Guy, is why, rather than Downs. I can too, see it being Malini's as he did Cards. I'm just going by "Gut" though. Thanks for your feedback. YOU ALL ROCK !!! Ed, (Eddini).
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irishguy
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On 2005-04-05 07:16, Eddini_81976 wrote:

As regards to the Side-Steal, and from reading above, my gut tells me this is Nate Liepzig's move. He was more a Card Guy, is why, rather than Downs. I can too, see it being Malini's as he did Cards. I'm just going by "Gut" though. Thanks for your feedback. YOU ALL ROCK !!! Ed, (Eddini).


Leipzig appears to be the one it is commonly attributed to. But I would argue that as Malini didn't make it a practice to hang out with many other magicians during his performing youth, he may well have independently come up with his version. His version does differ in that it is not a full palm method.
JimMaloney
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On 2005-04-11 17:52, irishguy wrote:
Leipzig appears to be the one it is commonly attributed to. But I would argue that as Malini didn't make it a practice to hang out with many other magicians during his performing youth, he may well have independently come up with his version. His version does differ in that it is not a full palm method.


The side steal, as it was originally written up (in Down's "Art of Magic") was not a full palm method. It also appeared in Stanyon's Magic that same year and, though I can't recall exactly, I don't believe that was a full palm method either.

-Jim
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irishguy
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On 2005-04-12 11:02, JimMaloney wrote:

The side steal, as it was originally written up (in Down's "Art of Magic") was not a full palm method. It also appeared in Stanyon's Magic that same year and, though I can't recall exactly, I don't believe that was a full palm method either.



Yes, but did Down's create it or merely report it?

Many magicians from that time period (and even now) never wrote their sleights and routines. It was left to others much later to do so. To the best of my knowledge, Malini never wrote his routines. Vernon was told some, others he witnessed and figured out.
JimMaloney
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On 2005-04-12 15:46, irishguy wrote:
Yes, but did Down's create it or merely report it?


That's the million dollar question. The indication in "The Art of Magic" is definitely that it was created by Downs. However, Leipzig was utilizing the side steal in routines several years prior to the release of "The Art of Magic". In addition, a significant number of Leipzig's items appeared in "The Art of Magic" without his permission. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that the side steal was one of those items. But that wasn't really my point. The point I was trying to make was that the Malini version you referenced as being different, wasn't really that different, because the earliest recorded version of the side steal is not a full palm method.

-Jim
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irishguy
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On 2005-04-12 16:17, JimMaloney wrote:

That's the million dollar question. The indication in "The Art of Magic" is definitely that it was created by Downs. However, Leipzig was utilizing the side steal in routines several years prior to the release of "The Art of Magic". In addition, a significant number of Leipzig's items appeared in "The Art of Magic" without his permission. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that the side steal was one of those items. But that wasn't really my point. The point I was trying to make was that the Malini version you referenced as being different, wasn't really that different, because the earliest recorded version of the side steal is not a full palm method.


Well, I meant that Malini's version was different than the commonly quoted full palm Leipzig method. But I will still say that an argument could be made that Malini independently created his version, as otherwise it would mean he read Down's work which isn't a safe assumption.
JimMaloney
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On 2005-04-12 17:24, irishguy wrote:
But I will still say that an argument could be made that Malini independently created his version, as otherwise it would mean he read Down's work which isn't a safe assumption.


Certianly -- while it's not the only option, it definitely is a valid possibility.

-Jim
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