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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Are mentalists as gullible as everyone else? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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xersekis
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To the general populus and to no one in particular:

It is important to remember both views are equally valid and invalid. Both are perspectives, both are beliefs, boths rely on incomplete evidence, bias, and many other elements. Both postitions are incorrect, incomplete, yet both are often defended viciosuly by their adherents. Both positions have those who evangelically prosletize and dismiss the other side as wrong. Both have some elements about which they are correct and yet still incomplete. And therein is the rub.

Those wedded to eitehr position rarely realize that there is more to a world view than their own limited view, their own mind set, their own position and belief structure and hence few make little headway into actual progress, personal evolution and development.

Far better to be open to possibility that may not ever occur than closed to it as impossibility.
Better for the mind, and for one's health.

Narrowmindedness, intolerance demonstrated by both sides, and in challenges, and in debunking,
and in blind believership of either position does little to further human kind.

Taking away hope does little to help those suffering heal. Better to have false hope than no hope at all. LITERALLY. The body responds differently when hopeful than when not. Not only IS that scientific but it is also common sense.

A door open leads to other places a door closed secures you within - or without.

Open our minds, try on another point of view, it may not fit, but you will learn far more from the opposition's point than from defending your own again and again. Repetition is madness too when it gets us nowhere but back to square one.

Stop fighting about your beliefs of the world and open up to accept others.

Does ESP exist - yes and no.

Does ESP not exist - yes and no.

And both sides have proof. But both sides also refuse to examine each other's side openly and without prior bias. Hence... no one is satisfied.

And guess what - maybe, just maybe that is the way of the world, of the universe ... that the answer is a possibility - not a cut and dried black and white wither or, yes or no. Maybe a probablity, a slim next to none chance, a quantum description rather than a Newtonian one. Perhaps in all actuality it is a brlurr and not a clear deliniated, well bordered, crisp image-

perhaps that is the comos sense of humor - that we ultimately will never know - but we will kill each other over our point of view. Defend to the death the right of the other person to hold a position diametrically opposed to yours, adopt their map, think outside your box, try walking a mile in their shoes and you will puch your personal evolution envelope further than if you remain set in your ways.

Aging is the weeding out of behaviors - the ben there done that. It is the acceptance of letting other people actually think for you and basing conclusions on others expereince instead of actually expereinceing your own. It is forgeting you were a child and yelling at the kids to get the ball out of your yard because the grass is more important than the innocent play of a child.

The truth will never be one side or the other. We should stop trying to make it so.

And small feeble minds - those that parrot others, that get their experience vicariously bore me...

the live their lives by the decsions others have made. Sadly, they also seem to yell the loudest and argue their believes more than others.

Who are the gullible - those who believe others, quote others, on either side. Sure we can use whatever evidence to prop up our argument, we can quote science, scientists, philosphgers, religous people, friends, family and foes etc. etc.
but realize that it is always incomplete and innacuate.

You know what I learned most in college. THat data could be fudged, falsified and accepted. That I could argue whatever I wanted and find eveidence for it and support for it and that it could be reviewede and accepted even if I purposefully presented a false premise, thesis, or data.

Scientists could be fooled. researchers could be fooled, not unlike the alpha project - but guess what so are philosophers, politicians, religions icons, and every day people. Police are fooled, FBI, and house wives. We are all gullible and guilty of acting as if we aren't. We all think we have the correct view, the right statistic, the critical, skeptical, rational, mind.

Hey we are all wrong more often than not. Let's accept it, face it, cut each other some slack and move forward.

You want to believe in PSI - MORE POWER TO YOU.

You don't want to believe in PSI - MORE POWER TO YOU.

Just let the other side believe what they want too and we will have a friendly, more tolerant open place - and while the verdict is still out - because after all it truly is - STILL OUT.

And we will do more to find the truth when we are open to it - than when we close are minds and refuse the possibility.

2 more cents by Rex

PS You know who can really be fooled - anyone on this forum.

Anyone that says a magician is equipped to do anything other than entertainer...

because that is what each field says about themselves. Doctors know better than anyone, Law enforcement knows better than... scientists are better than...

Don't believe for a second that any of us are actually better equipped...

We are all subject to thinking, believing and doing absolutely foolish things.
Terry Holley
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They have something in their nature where they feel that they have to assert they know the secret to everything and spoil the fun for everyone.


Maybe they simply want to see better magic. And by the way, who was having fun? Smile

Quote:
That is probably why you are a sceptic.


Actually, I'd rather be called a discerner. I'm on more of a "theological" pursuit of psychic phenomena than anything else, as those who may have read my book will understand (shameless plug). Smile

Quote:
Never fear though. I am now bored and have decided not to play any more. I just wanted to prove that reincarnation was making a comeback.


Any way that I can help you eliminate your "karmic debt" so that your cycle of reincarnation will finally be over and you and others can rest in peace? Smile

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Wolflock
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"This sentiment is both untrue and unhelpful. (Assume that it is true, you see immediately that it gives you reason to reject it.)"

I don't reject anything. I give my oppinion and I listen to everyone elses. Check all my previous posts, I have pointed out the positive and the negetive of all the posts that others have given.
There is no real truth or untruth. There is only each person's opinion. To them it is the truth though. Fernando... I mean reincarnation, please don't heckle Steve like that, like yourself he has given many valid points.

*Sigh* "There is an exception to every rule, except this one."
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xersekis
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Where did this topic go???
Wolflock
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It is still here... Somehow... Now the other one is gone.
Wolflock
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Magnus Eisengrim
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"There is no real truth or untruth." Is this true? Sorry, but such a claim is incoherent.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Wolflock
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Not really. What May be true to you, may not be true to me. You may hear noise but I wont as I am half deaf. Everyones perception of the truth is different.
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Muddy
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The National Spiritualist Association in Belgrave Square, London does auditions! In order to work the spiritualist church circuit in the UK you have to get your "credentials" In order to get those you have to pass an audition at the Association headquarters.

Actually that wouldnt be a bad idea ... obviously it couldn't be anyone as well known as Banachek. It would be interesting to say the least if someone hung out with these guys for a while and then wrote a full report ...
Magnus Eisengrim
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Perception and truth are not the same thing. Being true is different from being believed to be true. "True to you" or "true to me" are statements of belief; I agree that we may believe different things to be true. Our beliefs about the world, however, don't alter most truths. Either Elvis is dead, or he isn't: you can't have it both ways.

Let's pick a more volitile example. Did millions of European Jews die at the hands of the Nazis? Are you really willing to say that those who claim the Holocaust to be a hoax are just as correct as those who claim that the genocide is real?

Respectfully,

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Wolflock
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If that is the case then nothing is true. everything is perception. Fact: There are seven different colours in a rainbow. (Not to someone who is colour blind, or a dog, or a fly...) That is also why legend becomes myth. Fact turns to fiction due to perception of so called truth. Everyone percieves what they think is true. It cannot be proven though. So hey, I suppose we could be here till the end of time debating the perception of the truth of what the difference is between perception and truth, because we both percieve the truth of perception to be different... Well it sounded less confusing in my head. LOL.

Regards
Wolflock
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xersekis
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On 2004-12-23 03:20, Wolflock wrote:
If that is the case then nothing is true. everything is perception. Fact: There are seven different colours in a rainbow. (Not to someone who is colour blind, or a dog, or a fly...) That is also why legend becomes myth. Fact turns to fiction due to perception of so called truth. Everyone percieves what they think is true. It cannot be proven though. So hey, I suppose we could be here till the end of time debating the perception of the truth of what the difference is between perception and truth, because we both percieve the truth of perception to be different... Well it sounded less confusing in my head. LOL.



One really ought to read up on what constitutes a fact and whether anything can in fact be called a fact. It is a word often misued in english. Especially in common useage. Facts changes all the time - examine science and you will realize that what was true yeterday - accepted as fact may not be true today and vice versa. Perception is actually all we have as humans - some of it we agree on - some we don't. Perception of what constitutes facts is another area of discussion. The nature of our world by being in it is subjective expereince.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Again, these posts conflate "true" with "believed to be true". The introduction of the word "fact" doesn't help us here, as rex sikes points out, because the word has slippage in its use.

Is it true that polio is caused by a virus? Is it true that the earth's moon is cratered? Is it true that you are reading this message? These ones are easy.

Is it true that all persons are of equal worth? Is it true that one ought to have the freedom to practice the religion of one's choice? Is it true that people wish to maximize their own desires? These ones are not so simple.

That there is difficulty in resolving many (perhaps most) claims to truth does not imply that there is no distinction between truth and perception.

To make a magical point: if I convince my audience that I read their thoughts, when all I really did is peek at what they wrote, this doesn't mean that the audience knows the truth. There is a truth to the matter, and it happens to be the case that the audience does not have access to it. In short, beliefs can be right, they can be wrong, and it is sometimes impossible to determine which they are. But beliefs are not the same as truths.

Respectfully,

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Lee Darrow
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Quote:
On 2004-11-21 01:58, RonCalhoun wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-11-19 18:47, Jonathan1000 wrote:
Until recently, I would have bet the farm that mentalists would be universally skeptical about the existence of ESP.

If any group ever had an incentive to make esp work for real, it should be us. And if any group ever had direct and prolonged experience that esp doesn't work, it would also be us.


Jonathan1000

You are right about this “If any group ever had an incentive to make esp work for real, it should be us.”

I canNOT prove something does not work. But if anyone ever wanted to know, you're right, It would be us.

Ron Calhoun


Ron, I disagree. If ESP worked for real, then we would all be out of our jobs AS mentalists! Smile)

In a wonderful series of books called the Wild Cards, George R. R. Martin pointed out that magicians as a whole would be out of a job if psi ability were ever harnessed andbecame commonplace. Mentalists would also come out as being worthless as a significant percentage of the population could do what we fake, but could do it for real.

Frankly, I'm not sure I want it to work quite yet. I'd rather that the Powers-That-Be hold off on that revelation until long after I have retired in comfort.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Wolflock
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There is an exception to every rule! Except this one!
Wolflock
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Pakar Ilusi
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On 2004-11-20 00:42, Banachek wrote:
If you had said magicians/mentalists I would have to agree. Look how many fell for Derren Brown 's explanations. It is quite amazing when you think about it and look at the posts even here on this board. I am even fairly sure that it probably took Derren by surprise.

Whether the "explanation" is psychic or psychological, many want to believe, even those who should know better.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying there is no such thing as psychic phenomena but it is amazing how many want to believe those who say they are not using tricks when it is quite obvious they are. The rational is usually something like "just because they are using tricks sometime it does not mean they are using it all the time."

Well yes, who can argue with that? However, I would think those in the know would suspect that more than likely because "they" are using tricks quite often, that more than likely the odds are "they" are using tricks all the time and the few lucky hits are just that, lucky hits and the odds working in their favor. You do this stuff every day, you are going to have some things you just can't explain. If this did not happen, that would be odd in itself.

As for the question of ESP belief, I think there are many different levels of belief. The only problem I see is that those who believe ESP is possible, use the belief of it possible on a small scale and rare examples as "proof" that someone can do it on demand on stage. I have not seen that "proof" yet and have worked and seen the best. I have worked with the best, including Geller on stage and I have not seen anyone yet who did not cheat. Sad but true. As a result, I do say that anyone doing this stuff on stage is probably cheating. Do I say ESP is not real, I can't say that at all.

Just my two cents for what it might not be worth.


This. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
cpbartak
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Here's the more interesting question to me. Regardless of what you personally believe, what does the character you portray on stage believe? If this is different from your personally beliefs, how do you reconcile this difference? Do you feel your character is able to convincingly demonstrate psychic phenomena if you don't personally believe in it? If so, how? If you say, "no, that's why I use NLP." Do you personally believe that the things you're doing can be achieved through NLP?
Some people hear voices.. Some see invisible people.. Others have no imagination whatsoever.
kevin carmean
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Gordon Higginson is exceptional!
And of course the 1st thing you think of as a magician/mentalist is there has got to be some kind of preshow work before hand going on in order to pull this kind of demonstration off. And being a magician/mentalist for the last 48 years and pretty much familiar with every possible techniques available, I can still say that what I have witnessed 1st hand over the last 25 years of investigating this type of spiritualist message work, is that it is absolutely real. And I know 1st hand that no preshow work or other magic or mentalist techniques, that I am familiar with, were used, and yet the readings were absolutely this accurate!
Most mentalist and magicians are afraid of the implications of such a thing being real and slam it down and explain it away at every chance they get, without ever really investigating this topic fully. I, on the other hand, have taken the time and have personally sat in on over 1,872 such demonstrations and can say, without any doubt, that there is real spirit communication. I can also say that I have seen many, many fakes and frauds over the years who use most of the magic/mentalism techniques that we are all familiar with. But trying to discuss this without prejudice on this forum is a total waste of time. I have found over the years that fear of the unknown is a very powerful thing that causes most people to explain away anything that doesn't fit into their socially conditioned response. I also firmly believe that human arrogance and ignorance have no limit as it is often seen on this forum.
Pakar Ilusi
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Mentalists ARE as gullible as everyone else it seems, as this thread has proven. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Logan Five
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I am a believer simply because I have had too many experiences that I cannot explain away. Maybe that's why I am attracted to mentalism.
Self concept is destiny..
kevin carmean
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On 2014-02-09 17:30, Logan Five wrote:
I am a believer simply because I have had too many experiences that I cannot explain away. Maybe that's why I am attracted to mentalism.


Me too.
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