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bobser
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Corinda (in 13 steps), a natural skeptic, happily admits that a visitor (un-named in the book)totally baffling everyone in the magic circle with his evidence in readings.
I've watched the great Gordon Higginson many times claim that you 'don't' really need lots of evidences, going round and around till your dizzy. Only one. Then he would go on to totally wipe the floor with the skeptics and mentalists sitting in his audience.

I guess what I'm saying is some of us have possibly been lucky enough to experience things that others have unfortunately not.
The good news for skeptics of esp, the afterlife, etc,is: "If you fight really really hard for your non-beliefs...... you get to keep them."

It's always totally baffled me how non-believers seem to give the impression that they know something, or possess some knowledge, when by definition, they simply cannot.

Apart from that, isn't it much more exciting to through this 3 score & 10 with the attitude of: "Just Maybe" than trying to prove a negative?
Maybe this is why the skeptics always seem to come across as just a little agitated.
Can you imagine trying to tell someone who truly believes that they do actually 'know' that ESP exists that they're wrong cos' 'you' don't think so. It just doesn't work like that!

In my experience ESP is a complete and personal individual thing. But sometimes, as Professor Susan Blackmore (Bristol University)has stated: "The main challenge seems to be that it has a mind of its own, and for the most part 'chooses' not to play".
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Fernando
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Corinda knew the mediums well. He mixed in those circles at one time. Roy Walton once told me that Corinda used to be the guy who would go through the pockets in the spiritualist church cloakrooms to ferret out information about the congregation. He was what you would call a medium's assistant.

Regarding Gordon Higginson I remember him being caught and drummed out of the Spiritualist Association years ago for cheating. It must be about 44 years ago that I read about the scandal in "Psychic News" the famous UK spiritualist newspaper. He had been caught with ectoplasm which I think turned out to be crepe paper.I think he was also caught going through the pockets of the believers. I suppose Corinda was off that night.

Of course he is now the boss of the association. I was highly amused when he came on television and made a challenge to magicians thus:
"If you can come on stage and do what we do without any preparation I will give you a large sum of money (I forget how much now). You have to come on stage for two hours without any props and do exactly what the mediums do."

Of course no magician including Randi had the knowledge or experience to take up the challenge. It is an art in itself and magicians generally don't have the knack of it despite all the claptrap they write and talk about the subject.

I think that the next time the sceptics shrill loudly about Randi's $100,000 challenge the believers should say "we will be happy to do that once you have taken Higginson's challenge up"

That should shut them up.
Banachek
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There is a major logical flaw in the statement "I think that the next time the sceptics shrill loudly about Randi's $100,000 challenge the believers should say "we will be happy to do that once you have taken Higginson's challenge up"

The Sceptic is not making an outrageous claim. The spiritualist is making a claim against science as we know it today. The burdon of proof therefore lays squarely upon the person making the outrageous claim.

Therefore I doubt the statement would "shut them up."


A good sceptic knows when to say "I don't have enough informaton to make a definitive statment on such and such a claim." There is nothing wrong with stating what your experience has shown you though.
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Banachek
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Fernando
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Steve. You are probably correct when you say that it won't shut the sceptics up. I find that they do yap rather a lot. But then so do I. Perhaps I should have been a sceptic!

The difference is that we psychics (yes, that is my profession!) don't really give a stuff. We are making the money anyway. We don't need to prove anything. The "burden of proof" isn't on us, I am afraid. That is because we don't care. It may come as a shock to you but really.......we don't care! We really don't.

The sceptics are the ones who are making all the noise so the burden of proof is on them. Not us. Sorry.

You know Randi much better than me. I think he is a great showman.One of my favourites. However you know as well as I do that the old fraud ain't gonna cough up the money any more than Higginson is even if you pulled 3 tons of ectoplasm out of his left ear.

I noticed you don't deny that no magician or sceptic has the ability to get up on a stage and do what the mediums do for two hours or so without any props or preparation. It does take a little practice you know. Of course sometimes the spirits can't get through properly so you have to use other means to help them and this takes a bit of practice at doing things that sceptics aren't much good at.

You are a talented chap according to all accounts. I have never seen you work but I believe what I hear even though it hasn't been proven scientifically to me.
I will therefore forego the burden of proof requirement for the moment and assume that you are as wonderful as everyone says you are.

This being the case why don't YOU claim the money that Higginson is offering? I bet you could do it with a bit of practice. And you wouldn't have to be hampered by uncooperative spirits either.

Or is it the case that you know that Higginson is just as likely to give you the money as Randi is? I hate to tell you this but the psychics outwit the sceptics every time. Time and again, time and again.

Of course we have our dead relatives to guide us.
shrink
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I posted a while back about a Horizon documentary which I saw many years ago whuich I wished I had taped.

It was basically about ESP and PK. It had some very well known sceptic scientists and pro esp scientists carry out some scientifically controlled experiments.

Falling beans over a sort of maze influencing with thoughts where they would land was one of the experiments if I remember correctly.

The sceptics not suprisingly got negative results while the pro esp scientists got positive results. Both sets of experiments were conducted exactly with the same controls.

The programme concluded with some of the latest discoveries in the field of quantum physics and that science is catching up with what some esoteric practices have been saying for thousands of years.

Also the sceptic scientist conceded that beyond doubt there was something in esp.

Sorry I can't say much more as it was a while ago. If it ever re-runs again tape it.

Shrink
Banachek
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Fernando, I did not deny or state otherwise that a magician could get up on stage and do as they have. In fact quite the opposite, I have seen many a magician through the years who could do just that. The interesting thing is I suspect, as happened with me with the alpha project, is that if any magician did do just as you request the spiritualists would be crying that they have to be real.

I for one would be happy to get up on stage for two hours with no props. With that in mind, if you would as well let me choose the time and place, especially the place as most of the spiritualists do, that would be nice, if not, I would still be willing to do it. Give me Higgenson's number and if he will sign a contract stating that he will be willing to give the money and do it under a committee for me, with me I will be happy to do it. Of course, he will have to present proof that another medium has done exactly what he proposes I do and not just hearsay. "A spiritualist walked through a wall, we want to see you do that." I would suggest that a spiritulist be present and do two hours of work and then I duplicate it as close as is possible. This would be great fun actually.

Having said this, I would like to point out that this question by Higgenson is much like a mentalist as myself stating that if someone thinks it is all fake then I suggest they get up on stage and do it all and I will pay them money, I suspect they could not even if a professional mentalist was to do so. We all have our own subtleties. So I would hope he would not hold me down to every simple detail. In the reverse (sceptic vs. spiritualist) all we ask is for one bit of proof under controlled conditions, any bit at all not just a very specific piece we might ask for.

The interesting thing is the burden is not upon the sceptic to prove it false. The sceptic is not presenting the claim. The spiritualist is presenting a claim. You do not seem to understand that and fall upon the time tested illogical argument of "We don't care." If this is the case, why not? Surely if this was real and spiritulists want to help (as they claim their work is all about) would they not want to make sure it was documented as genuine. Surely they could make more money by convincing everyone it is real, if it is about the money?

If as you say you and others who claim genuine powers do not care, then why comment upon the sceptics at all? Obviously there is some sort of emotional internal twisting going on when sceptics comment because if spiritulists genuinely did not care as you state, then they would not see a need to comment about it as you state.

With much respect
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek
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Hypnotic Winter
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I like what Ian Rowland said.
when people ask him can he really do what the psychics do? he says," yes", then people ask him,"isn't it hard?" to which he replys,"of course not otherwise the psychic couldn't do it".

Ian, if your out there I appoligise if I've mixed your lines up a nit but I think I got it close enough.

H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
asmayly
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Shrink,
There's a movie out in the US in very limited runs called "What the BLEEP do I know".

I suppose it's the lastest on quantum physics and influencing reality (aka ESP/ religion/ prayer, etc.).

It was produced by a Software engineer out of Boulder Colorado who made it big with 2 companies and promised himself that if he was successful the second time, he would make this movie.

It is quite interesting! Rent it when it comes out on DVD.
bobser
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To Fernando...
I'm sorry but you're more than just a little mixed up. In fact you're talking sh***te. Sorry, but as a Scotsman I find it hard to be anything other than blunt in matters of such major importance.
1st) Gordon Higginson WAS suspected of fraud. Do you know of any decent mediums or mentalists who haven't been?
And maybe he did give himself 'an edge' when every so often we was asked to perform again and again and again for someone who had just travelled for several days to receive (free)evidence that their loved one was alive. But I don't know that he did and evidently, neither do you.
2nd) Gordon Higginson never offered the sum of money you refer to, as if he were some stage mentalist, which,at best, is what 'we all are'.
3rd) In all fairness to you, I get the feeling that you are actually getting him mixed up with someone else.
Gordon Higginson, for you and Banachek's information, passed away over 12 years ago. He was, without doubt, the greatest living medium of his age. He would have enjoyed mentalism, but would never in his life performed it. And to the best of my knowledge, never charged for his work or readings with regard to Spiritual churhes, of which he worked through for more than thirty years. he was known as 'the boy medium' and from the age of 12 was actually stoned whilst doing his demonstrations which as I said were commission free. Maybe one day some of us might be able to get our commercialised heads round that. Though sadly, I doubt that very much!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
shrink
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Asmayly: thanks for the DVD tip I,ll look out for it sounds just like something I would enjoy. I personally believe there is more to what our senses or conventional conditioning allows us to percieve. I think the eternal ongoing argument similar to this one is a waste of time. I think ESP probably does exist but not in the theatrical form that we are discussing.

Most people would agree that there is a spiritual side to the human race (even most sceptics)although no science has proved it because science and spirituality are two different things. Filter the spiritual element through scientific processes and its no longer spiritual..

Shrink
Banachek
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Thanks Bobser for the clarification, Higginson sounds like an intriguing personality. I had never heard of him before.

Maybe Fernando will continue the trend he talks about and offer me the money from his own pocket if I can get up on stage and duplicate his work? Especially since Fernando states that other psychics should use this ploy as shutting sceptics up. I would be willing to have a go of it at my own expense even.
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek
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Fernando
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I will reply in more detail a little later. I have to check with Mr Higginson in the spirit realm first. I wasn't aware he had died. We psychics are not like sceptics you know. We don't claim to know everything.

I do have Mr Higginsons statement in a book about Doris Stokes.I must ask Mr Bobser to refrain from bad language since I am a very spiritual person. He can surely make his point in a less profane manner.

Incidentally Doris Stokes was a great medium. I remember when she sent silly old Randi off with a flea in his ear on the radio. He scampered off quicker than a demented flea.

Did you know that Doris was managed from jail by the notorious murderers -the Kray twins?

Steve is what we in the business call a "half wide mug" He obviously doesn't know much about the psychic business if he has never heard of Gordon Higginson.

I will answer his points in more detail. However I would just like to say that I will be DELIGHTED to answer his challenge since Gordon is unavailable at the moment. I am quite sure that he will get as much money out of me as I would get out of Randi. I operate in exactly the same way. If I fail at the challenge and am unable to pay I am sure that Gordon will send the money from the spirit world.
Banachek
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No problem Fernando, looking forward to it, I suspect your challenge will fall in the same catergory as your willingness to pay up when we get attorneys involved to write up the rules of engagement so to speak.

Do you now who Jaques Romano was or how about Elaine Chambersburg or Bevy Jaegers or the name Eileen Garett or Nelya Mikailova or Masuaki Kiyota. If not you must be a "half wide mug" as well. And since you did not know Higginson was dead, by your own definition you are a "half wide mug." FUnny enough any of the names mentioned would not know each other at all yet they all consider themselves psychics, guess they must be "Half wide Mugs" as well. Even sceptics should not be expected to know everything, what is good for the goose is good for the gander as you might say Smile Fun to play this game of semantics is it not?

I now start to realize this is a lark on your part and not serious. It appears to be a cry for attention.

Randi does serious investigation, I know, I have been there. And despite what you may or may not think, the money can be won. There are too many people involved now with the challenge for it not to be real (not that it ever was not real at any point.)
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek
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dchung
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Rev. Lewis, I presume.
Fernando
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Sorry mate. I don't deal with lawyers. Bunch of bloody crooks. 99% of them give the rest a bad name. I must insist on an ethical challenge so I cannot allow lawyers to be anywhere near the place.

In any event you don't seem to understand the nature of Higginson's challenge. Now do pay attention, there's a good chap.

You are being challenged not to duplicate my act since you do not know what it is. Or to do tricks without props. You are being challenged to do one thing only for two hours with equal expertise as the spiritualists. That is to contact dead people and relay the messages in as accurate a manner as they do. If you cannot do this then the argument is over. If you can do this as well as they do and you admit to trickery it means that you are a very wicked person.

You know as well as I do that this type of work takes a lot of practice if you are going to use trickery. If you can do it well then one wonders where you got your expertise from? It can only mean that you have been spending your time relaying messages to dead people for a long period and using trickery to do so. If you are expert in this work using trickery then you are a very wicked person. If you are expert not using trickery then you are a genuine medium.

I wouldn't go up against the mediums at their own game, my boy. You will fail dismally. Remember the old adage. YOU CAN NEVER WIN AGAINST A PSYCHIC. Magicians never can. They are not as sharp as we are.

I have been in touch with Mr Higginson in the spirit world. He informs me that the challenge is still on and that Bobser is ill informed when he said that it doesn't exist. Although the challenge was made on TV is was also made in a book the title of which I will unearth eventually.

I do not cry out for attention. I always believe that egomania is a dreadful thing. My name is not Randi you know.

As for the likeable old fraud being willing to give the money away I can assure everyone that there is as much likelihood of that as there is of me being elected Pope. I actually know a psychic who won the challenge and told me that he was very upset that the old rogue didn't pay him out. I told Earl (that was his name) that I was quite surprised that he would be daft enough to even try to get money out of someone who isn't going to give him any.

I do know exactly who these people are that you mention. However they are not British and consequently are of no importance whatsoever. A bit like Randi actually.

I do know exactly who Gordon Higginson is but I have been very busy lately contacting other dead people so have not been keeping up with him and did not know he had passed. However since your post I have been in regular touch with him and he tells me that he finds you most amusing.He also tells me that he remembers this Bobser personage and found him to very irritating. He kept swearing throughout the service in a very inappropriate Scottish manner. Very rude he thought.

I am not a "half wide mug" I don't even think you know the meaning. I can assure you that I know the psychic business inside out, backwards and forwards. You might know about doing magic tricks -you know very little about the psychic business. Most magicians think they know all about it. They don't. Neither does Randi

I do. I know what goes on. I can assure you that even the fakes don't use ANY of the methods that the sceptics chatter about. No. Not one. Remember-I know. You don't. I am the expert. You aren't.

I was supposed to see a tape of you doing your mindreading show tonight. It didn't arrive. Once I see it in the next day or two I will give you my honest opinion on it. I have to see if you are of sufficient calibre to accept the Higginson challenge.

I met a fellow psychic tonight who met you once. He liked you very much but thought you took your work a mite too seriously. Lighten up, my boy. Lighten up.

I told him about your "burden of proof" thing and he burst out laughing. Naturally I have no idea why.
Banachek
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Interersting Martin.

Ethical challenge, you already stated you are not as you would not honor the test. The very fact you are in a mentalist area shows you are not real at all.

Thanks for the fun, if you change your mind about the lawyers writing up the contact, let me know.

Can't wait to read your review. Kind like the "I will blow money on Banachek's PK silveware DVD and give you a review" on another board Smile

I must say you have gotten much better in your writing style.

As for knowing the psychic business, I know at least one side of it. I worked as one remember.

Thanks for the fun and laughs but unless this is serious I have better things to do with my time than be roped into this nonsense. (if your "not british it does not matter", how silly)

All the best mate.
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek
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Fernando
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Oh very well. Call in the lawyers if you wish. However you must remember that you stated that you would accept the challenge at your own expense. You will therefore have to pay for the lawyers.

They don't scare me. I have been dealing with lawyers for years. They have never caught up with me yet. And of course you will no doubt be hiring American lawyers and we all know how bright THEY are.

You are NOT a psychic. Disrupting serious scientific research in a cheap publicity stunt is NOT working as a psychic. This stunt was perpetrated by juveniles who had just come off breastfeeding and who cannot be described as professional psychics.

However I will indeed be happy to give your tapes an objective review. I must however warn you that I have decided to be bored by you since all modern mentalists have that effect on me. None of you are a patch on the old guys that used to do it.

I am sorry that you feel that you "do not want to be roped into this nonsense. Pity since you proffered the challenge in the first place.

Let us see how you measure up to it.
giochi
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Give it up, fernando.
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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I'm rolling my eyes along with you Banachek. We might not agree on absolutely everything, but I know we're cold reading Fernando the same way.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
Wolflock
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Hee hee. I must agree with Banachek. There are still challenges out there like the ones done by, Houdini and Dunninger, etc. No one seems to win them though. I will not only believe, but will probably worship ANY Medium or psychic that can answer TWO questions that I have. don't ask me what the questions are, if you are really psychic, you can tell me what the questions are and what the answers are. They are questions to a passed away relative. That is all that I will give.

Seeing is believing in a sense. I will gladly shower the one able to answer my questions, with more money than they can imagine. Until that day, don't even try to convince me that you are a real medium or psychic. I have challenged many Charlatans and have been the only one to come out victorious. I love studying anything about the paranormal, religious and philisophical.

Right now Fernando, you are reacting the way I believe Arthur Conan Doyle Reacted when his wife was proven to be a charlatan by Harry Houdini.

Regards
Wolflock
PS. Say Hi to Elvis for me.
Wolflock
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