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shrink
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I guess I am speaking about sceptics in general not you specifically. The number of times Ive heard sceptics "debunk" firewalking when in fact most of the people I know of who present firewalking including Tony Robbins who made it famous make no claims of it being supernatural. Its a tool toexpand participants boundaries.
John Nesbit
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Quote:
On 2004-11-24 20:11, PaulPacific wrote:
Fernando tells me that he has now been banned from this board. Naturally he has no idea why.

John seems to be implying that I , Fernando, and RJE are the same person. If this is the case it can easily be disproved. Perhaps he can clarify his post.

Banachek himself can verify who I am since he has actually met me in person.


Paul, I didn't mean to imply that you were all the same person, (although it did cross my mind).I meant to imply that you three seemed to know one another (well).
It has been revealed to me that you all are very decent people in person. And I do find it regretful that "anyone" had to be banned from the Café'.
Shrink is not alone with his feelings about "skeptics". It does seem that way. Way too often.
How do skeptics account for "human desire and intention", overcoming seemingly overwhelming odds in the face of adversity?
Isn't that called "Spirit" (and/or inspiration) ? The kind I'm refering to isn't found in a bottle or can either.
All The Best
John
Wolflock
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As for Fire walking, It takes a bit of Neuro Linguistic Programming, or a bit of cheating. Persons choice. As to the Cheating side of things, read Miracle Mongers and their methods by Houdini. Explains a lot.

Awww. Has Fernando Really been Banned? There goes all my amusement from the clown. Oh well, cant have all the fun everyday.
Wolflock
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Banachek
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Shrink and others, sceptic does not mean being closed minded. THere is a big difference, there are closed minded fanatics on both sides of the fence.

I think people tend to get upset when they are lumped in with the fanatics on both sides of the fence on most subject.

In other words, most readers hate to be compared with ripp off artists who really try to scare people into coming back and getting rid of a curse, just as most honest sceptics hate being lumped in with those who just naysay everything without proper investigation and having a healthy sceptical yet open mind. There is a big difference.

Usually, on both sides of the fence, but not always, those who are fanatical speak the loudest and make the most noice.

To be sceptical is a healthy thing, not a negative thing and not a negative attitude. It is a positive attitude to look at life and situations thirsting knowledge. Not to accept everything at face value, but not to throw the baby out with the bathwater either. Sceptic does not equal to negate but it does equal to sitting on a fence and taking a good healthy look under the covers before one makes a decision.

This type of attitude can save you from being taken in many situations from medical scams to credit fraud to things as simple as not falling for urban legends. A good sceptic can go to a magic show and sit back and enjoy it. A bad sceptic would not be able to do that. A good sceptic understands the context of the performance.
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek
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Wolflock
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Well Said Banachek.

Regards
Wolflock

P.S. Love your Work
Wolflock
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bobser
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Yep,
Banacheck makes a good point. If I can put a building block on that (Jermay just loves me)I would say that 'sceptics' we can all live with. They are in truth actually open minded people who are parhaps looking at new facts outside their comfort zone or immediate field of learning.
It's the 'cynics' we have to keep away from!
Cretin type behaviourists who possess glazy eyes and a constant stream of saliva, who cling on to 'whatever' for no apparent reason other than the fact that they have this disease and can't do anything about it.
e.g; take my mother in law.... please take my mother in law!
(All this and humour too?!)
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Neil
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Most magicians I've met are skeptics. Only a few are cynics.

I think this is because it attracts those with a thirst for knowledge/truth and the knowledge you gain about perception and altering it reveals a lot about the nature of belief.
Wolflock
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The only problem with that, is that one person's truth is not neccessarily another person's truth.
Wolflock
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Stuart Cumberland
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If Fernando has been booted off, then he's been booted off for no reason that I can see.

Having said that, it's certainly a good way to kill off a debate about Randi and his friends.

Ah well.
Stuart Cumberland
Wolflock
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I am just going to miss having a good laugh.
Wolflock
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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I don't mind a gentlemanly debate.
Childish posturing and schoolyard nose-thumbing on the other hand...

Steve


Posted: Nov 25, 2004 10:51am
---------------------------------------------------
A quotation from the page on Café' Etiquette:

"However, like a real Café, we do expect you to act like ladies and gentlemen and show good manners and courtesy while visiting. Thank you."

It's not too much to ask, folks.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
Stuart Cumberland
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Quote:
On 2004-11-25 10:21, Dr_Stephen_Midnight wrote:
I don't mind a gentlemanly debate.
Childish posturing and schoolyard nose-thumbing on the other hand...

Steve


I could't agree more. The folks here shouldn't have made fun of Fernando. It was un-gentlemanly, to say the least. And kicking him out of the schoolyard altogether... well, what can be said about that.

Excellent points, Steve.
Stuart Cumberland
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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Agreed. If the post is inappropriate, report it.

As for the moderators' decision to ban Fernando, that's an issue you need to take up with them, if you disagree.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
Terry Holley
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For the most part, wherever "Fernando" shows up online, you can predict without the use of a NW that he will get booted off!

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Winnes
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I have nothing intelligent to say on either side of the debate, other than its been a great read, please refrain from calling the Head Honcho "Brookenfuehrer" though... this thread will dissapear in no time at all... and he'll send the firing squad round..
Magnus Eisengrim
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"The only problem with that, is that one person's truth is not neccessarily another person's truth."

This sentiment is both untrue and unhelpful. (Assume that it is true, you see immediately that it gives you reason to reject it.)

Certainly many CLAIMS to truth are disputable, and many truths are unknown or unknowable. And this is where intelligent debate lives.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Winnes
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Not quite the bowels, more like the colon. As you know, Satan has visited here many times.

Didn't stay long though, too cold for the old fool.
jimtron
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Quote:
On 2004-11-25 01:21, johnjnesbit wrote:
...
How do skeptics account for "human desire and intention", overcoming seemingly overwhelming odds in the face of adversity?
Isn't that called "Spirit" (and/or inspiration) ? The kind I'm refering to isn't found in a bottle or can either.
All The Best
John


Some would probably say they don't know, some might say God is responsible, some would say human beings are cabable of extraordinary (as well as ghastly) accomplishments without supernatural power. How do non-skeptics account for these things? I would never say that everything can be measured or proven. But I think it's a relatively simple matter to prove if someone is actually bending metal with their mind.

I think there are people here who have an inaccurate view of skepticism. It's not about saying that we know all the mysteries of the world (I've never heard a scientist or skeptic say that), and it's not about saying there is no such thing as the supernatural. Nothing should be ruled out. It's about wanting to distinguish between what's really supernatural and what's merely imagined or faked (which isn't always knowable, but often it is). As Banachek said, it's not about being negative. If you're really interested in PSI power, don't you want to know when it's truly happening? If you had true PSI powers, wouldn't you want to demonstrate that your power was authentic and not a trick?
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2004-11-25 11:38, Terry Holley wrote:
For the most part, wherever "Fernando" shows up online, you can predict without the use of a NW that he will get booted off!

Terry


And although I didn't write this in the above post, you can do the same regarding his showing back up!

Welcome back to The Magic Café, "reincarnation."

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
John Nesbit
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On 2004-11-25 14:27, jimtron wrote:
Quote:
Some would probably say they don't know, some might say God is responsible, some would say human beings are cabable of extraordinary (as well as ghastly) accomplishments without supernatural power. How do non-skeptics account for these things? I would never say that everything can be measured or proven. But I think it's a relatively simple matter to prove if someone is actually bending metal with their mind.

I think there are people here who have an inaccurate view of skepticism. It's not about saying that we know all the mysteries of the world (I've never heard a scientist or skeptic say that), and it's not about saying there is no such thing as the supernatural. Nothing should be ruled out. It's about wanting to distinguish between what's really supernatural and what's merely imagined or faked (which isn't always knowable, but often it is). As Banachek said, it's not about being negative. If you're really interested in PSI power, don't you want to know when it's truly happening? If you had true PSI powers, wouldn't you want to demonstrate that your power was authentic and not a trick?

I agree with you jimtron and Banachek about this perspective on skepicism. I was refering to outright "claims" that ESP does not exist. Or that "psychic" abilities are all bogus. And that spirituality is all fraudulent. There are those who are vigilant about this subject. But like Banachek advocates, being fanatical either way doesn't help anyones cause.
John
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