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SANTINI Loyal user SANTINI 293 Posts |
Hi,
What I can't believe is the fact that any sort of "psychic" foolery for profit is not deemed downright illegal. I mean, if I went on T.V. and tried hawking some soil I had dug up in my garden and instead claimed it to be, "Authentic Martian Miracle Wonder Mud" (great for that occasional and annoying little bout of flesh eating disease), I would be investigated and locked up quicker than you can say "Don't dare reach for the soap in the prison shower stall". Why? One word;... fraud. Once it was established that the people I sold my miracle mud to were still being eaten bit by bit that would be all she wrote for me and my claims. In a world where common sense prevailed the same thing should, and would, apply to the legions of fake seers and so called psychics out there. But then again, who ever said this world was sensible? Steve Santini |
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Then also, you have to decide where that 'anti fraud' effort begins and ends. Do you include, for instance, the local church that collects money from its parishioners to 'continue the Lord's work?'
After all, they cannot prove the existence of God, yet they take offerings on his behalf. The state of Ohio once had anti-fortune-telling laws, but eventually dropped them with the increasing emergence of pagan and mystical religious groups in the 1970s. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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Jonathan1000 Veteran user 325 Posts |
A brief point about who has the burden of proof in this skeptic vs. believer controversy, and what that means:
Unfortunately, there is no way to prove that PSI doesn't exist -- scientific propositions don't work that way. We can't even prove that person X lacks psychic powers; If he fails a test, it only shows that, for whatever reason, he didn't demonstrate them on that occasion. What that means is that it's not up to skeptics to prove the absence of PSI -- it's not possible to do that, any more than one can prove that flying giraffes don't exist. Rather, the burden is on the community of believers to prove its existence. From a methodological point of view, all it takes is one confirmed, reliable instance under proper conditions to prove the case. Point to one flying giraffe, and the debate is over. So if PSI is real, proving so should be a snap. Compare that to the skeptic's heavy burden: Like Sisyphus, he must labor for eternity, disproving every single alleged case of PSI. So shouldn't sincere believers actually be grateful to Randi? After all, his reward offers a venue and an incentive for believers to provide that one confirming case. Jonathan
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals." -- Homer Simpson
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Banachek V.I.P. Houston 1086 Posts |
I would like to clear on things up. It seems that people have the misconception about the reward Randi offers.
First some of the misunderstanding comes about because Randi has taken donations that are not due till anyone wins the award. As a result, some that are on the other side of the fence so to speak state: "why should I try out for it, he will never collect?" Well this is just not true, you see Randi has had a very wealthy individual put the amount in question in escrow. It is there for any one to check on and validate. So the money is there waiting for someone to claim if they can. The money is not Randi's so he has nothing to lose. So as you can see, all is indeed fair. Can you imagine the amount of money Randi would make if he someone did indeed take the reward. Keep in mind, the foundation has rights to all video. Randi would be the first to endorse such a person. Someone winning is a win win situation for the foundation. It just has not happened yet. Randi would be longer remembered as the person who finally found a real "psychic", much longer than he will as a debunker. As for Geller and Randi being in cahoots. This is a silly theory really, fun but silly. Geller cost Randi a lot of money defending the many lawsuits. It ain't cheap to go to court.
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek Campus Performer of the Year two years in a row Year 2000 Campus Novelty Act PEA Creativity Award Recipient http://www.banachek.com |
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Jeckyll the pitchman doctor New user 2 Posts |
Since this is the case I have a proposition to offer. Since Randi is going to benefit tremendously from finding a real psychic let's do a deal.
Since you know him I bet you can set it up. I will accept the challenge and Randi will secretly arrange that I win it even if my psychic powers aren't working very well. He agrees to give me some money. I don't want the full $100,000. I don't want to be greedy $25,000 will do. I will be happy to get some extra money and Randi will be happy to get all the extra supposed benefit from finding a "true" psychic. You know perfectly well that he is as big a fraud as I am so I bet he will go for it. The wealthy individual will be happy too since he will only have to pay out $25,000 and I know that he is so enormously wealthy that he won't miss it for the sake of a bit of fun. As for Randi being the "first to endorse" such a person I am sorry but it doesn't tie in with his track record. If you really believe that then I shall merely ask if you have heard the one about the three bears? With great respect for your wondrous ability even though I haven't seen your DVD yet. I will soon. Jeckyll the pitchman doctor. Posted: Nov 28, 2004 2:22pm ----------------------------------------- A note to Steve Santini. Fraudulent psychics ARE illegal. All the normal laws against fraud in virtually every jurisdiction cover the practices that fake psychics get up to. The police tend not to take any action though and the laws are not enforced well even if there are complaints which there are all the time. I bet our British friends have no idea that fortune telling is SPECIFICIALLY against the law. Of course nobody in the UK takes any notice and gypsies abound at every seaside resort. On very, very rare occasions if a fortune teller goes too far the police get involved but it is very infrequent in actual practice. In Ontario where Steve lives it may surprise him to know that a similar situation exists. Psychics are illegal! Yet there is a psychic fair virtually every week in the province. There are more psychics per capita in Ontario than virtually anywhere. The biggest psychic fair in North America is in Toronto. The promoter told me that the whole fair is illegal! He also said a lot of the psychics he has in his show are criminals and he wouldn't let them into his house but we won't go into that right now. It did make me laugh though since I was sitting in his house at the time. Santini old chap, you can rest easy. Psychics in general are banned in Ontario. It doesn't stop me though and I am just as much a fake as the rest of them. |
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Banachek V.I.P. Houston 1086 Posts |
Promoting someone that is not "real" would be the kiss of death and a LIE. How about you find someone who is real, work a deal out with him or her or it (animals are included, even bears Martin), and present it to Randi.
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In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek Campus Performer of the Year two years in a row Year 2000 Campus Novelty Act PEA Creativity Award Recipient http://www.banachek.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-11-27 11:15, SANTINI wrote: So much of this falls under first amendment rights that it is scary. As long as a "psychic" words his plea for money correctly, it falls under freedom of religion. And for those of you who are skeptics and atheists, bear in mind that it is this very freedom which allows you to proclaim your beliefs, or lack thereof.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
I agree that freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and tolerance are extremely important and should be fought for. But I also understand the argument that charging money for "psychic services" does appear to approach fraud, arguably. As Bill pointed out, it depends on what the psychic claims. If they don't make any grandiose promises about results or claim to be able to predict the future I don't necessarily see a problem. Just like a psychotherapist shouldn't claim that they can absolutely cure all of their client's problems--I would call that fraud unless they had proof.
If a psychic calls their services "spiritual counseling," that seems pretty fair. If they claim supernatural ability and are charging money, in my opinion they have a responsibility to back up any claims they make. It seems to me that it would benefit the consumer as well as the psychic to prove their abilities. After all, if you are a psychic with authentic supernatural abilities, don't you want to distinguish yourself from fake psychics? And on another note-- Jeckyll: You wouldn't happen to know a chap named Fernando, would you? |
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Wolflock Inner circle South Africa 2257 Posts |
But then are we as magicians not the same? People pay us money to do magic for them. Are we not, to an extent, fraudulant too. We do not actually do magic, but people believe that we do. Exactly the same way that they believe mediums really have power. As everyone can see, I am not opposed or for either side in this discussion. I am just placing my views and points down because I find this debate to be extremely fasinating. Both sides have brought up very valid points on the subject. How about a challenge. Let us see if anyone can come up with a test which has conditions that both sides can agree to. In other words, let us come to a compromise and see what test we can come up with.
Wolflock
Pro Magician & Escapologist Member of JMC (Johannesburg Magic Circle) South Africa |
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educated New user 12 Posts |
It doesn't work that way, Wolflock old chap. You don't "test" psychic ability. You experience it.
I think perhaps the best way to convince you of the validity of my psychic power is to show YOU how to do it yourself. Once you possess the same power I do you will then believe it won't you? Perhaps I shall teach you. Actually you have the power already. You just haven't developed it yet. Everyone has the power but some have a more natural ability for it in the same way that some people have a more natural ability for music or dancing. Or dare I say even magic. You will find that mentally ill people have it more naturally than others. It is as if one part of the mind shuts down and another part compensates for it. Of course this can often make the illness worse. You will find that artistic people have it more than non artistic people. You will find that people who have had a hard life have it.You will find that cops and customs officers have it. You will NOT find that lawyers, doctors or accountants have it although there are a few exceptions. I may decide to teach you all. On the other hand I may not. We will see what mood I am in. Posted: Nov 29, 2004 7:03am --------------------------------------- I wish to inform Banacek that I will indeed take up his challenge. I do know an animal that is not only psychic it can talk.This alone is proof of supernatural powers. However she cannot come straight out yet and admit it since once Randi sees her yapping away he will chicken out and refuse to give her permission to take the challenge. It is a cat that has rather high vet bills to pay and can't afford it. She can therefore do with $100,000. She has agreed to cut me in on the deal. However she doesn't trust Randi and insists on a deposit because her time is very valuable. She says that the burden of proof is on Randi to show his challenge is genuine so she is insisting on a $50,000 advance. She promises to give back the money if she fails to show psychic ability. Cat's honour. How about it? |
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Wolflock Inner circle South Africa 2257 Posts |
Educated, go for it. I am open minded. Teach me.
Wolflock
Pro Magician & Escapologist Member of JMC (Johannesburg Magic Circle) South Africa |
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Daegs Inner circle USA 4291 Posts |
Quote:
I do know an animal that is not only psychic it can talk.This alone is proof of supernatural powers. Parrot??? I think a talking animal is a bit different than a psychic animal... Also the money is in a vault somewhere, it isn't Randi's to give $50k away... -daegs http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm |
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
I'm a little concerned that people believe that Randi is the only way to validate psychic phenomena. There are plenty of universities that would be willing to perform tests on an individual - there is, for example plenty of research conducted into alternative medicine.
Randi might have a vested interest in seeing a psychic fail, but science itself is not biased. It's really not there to persecute people and their beliefs. |
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Wolflock Inner circle South Africa 2257 Posts |
Crows can talk too if taught. Also Indian Mynahs and other types of birds.
Dont know if any of those birds are psychic though. None of them have told me yet.
Wolflock
Pro Magician & Escapologist Member of JMC (Johannesburg Magic Circle) South Africa |
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educated New user 12 Posts |
Bootweasel is of course correct.The trouble is that Randi sometimes sends impertinent children in to these places to cause trouble and interfere with the research.
However the problem is that psychic ability is difficult to quantify and put in a bottle to be examined. It comes when you are not expecting it to come. It cannot be turned on and off like a tap. However I think a scientific approach is far more valid than some claptrap by a biased individual about a supposed challenge. It is true that a psychic could come in and perpetrate fraud at the study. However the solution is that you offer no money or publicity to the psychic. You are more likely to get sincere people if you do that. That is the flaw with Randi's challenge. By offering large sums of money you attract all the frauds out of the woodwork. Daegs. Do pay attention my boy. My animal is a cat not a parrot.She is a very sincere cat and will also offer to do the study for no money. However she insists on no publicity so you may never hear of her. I might teach Wolflock and others later. I will have to wait a bit though. I sense unbelievers and it is very unsettling. |
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Neil Elite user 486 Posts |
Randi is better qualified to test such "powers" than most university people - they are often easily duped, as Banachek and Geller have demonstrated.
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Daegs Inner circle USA 4291 Posts |
Quote:
There are plenty of universities that would be willing to perform tests on an individual I think, as Banachek has proven, that universities doing paranormal studies out to prove the existance might not be the best place to get the final word on Psychic activity. Randi knows what to look for, and can setup a test that is completly fair to the real psychic but impossible for the fraud... Quote:
I sense unbelievers Your biggest problem is that you equate "skeptics" to non-believers or people that are out to prove that it doesn't exist. Personally, and I think I speak for most skeptics, including Randi, WOULD LOVE for there to be a real psychic in the world. The problem is that at no time has a real psychic ever demonstrated their powers on the earth. I personally don't believe a word of what you say, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see proof. The problem is that instead of giving proof(because you are faking), you instead say "It goes on and off" or "If you really believed, you wouldn't need proof" or other nonsense which you only say because you know that you can never prove any instance of psyhic activity. In every other single thing about us humans, we do good when we are pushed and tested. In sports, people compete in front of many other people, on TV with no problem. In the mind area, people give amazing memory demonstrations all the time under test conditions and perform extremly well. We perform other test such as IQ test, SAT, ect with no problems. Why is it that the 1 thing that we don't believe in, can't be tested? I would think that out of all the "psychics" in the world, there must be one very skilled that could pass some sort of rudimentary test of their abilities, and yet it all turns out to be trickery or nothing more than 50/50 odds working out slightly in their favor. Sure, there are amazing coincidences in life, but you can't claim that all of your wrong-predictions/thoughts are because you're powers are "off" at that time, but everytime you're right they are working? This is just playing the odds, trying to tip people's perceptions in your favor. I think that is says something when for all of documented history there are reportedly psychics all over the place, and yet there is not one case that has proved to be true? Science, religion, society and so many things have advanced, why is it that psychics are always un-able to be proven? Out of all the "psyhics" in the world who spend any amount of time talking about skeptics, why not just go and prove their powers exist and end the debate for all time? it would only take *one* psychic to prove themselves and things would change and they would be accepted, but that hasn't happened and won't happen, because it is all a delusion. I'd like to believe that psychics exist, and I desperatly would like to see evidence of one, but you can't believe in a delusion just because you want too. Live in reality, it's much better for you |
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
Whilst I agree that scientists can be duped, I think that having the backing of a reputable university is the first step to becoming recognised as genuine.
I realise the necessity for measures to ensure that no fraud, deliberate or otherwise, takes place, but Randi's confrontational attitude is by no means necessary to implement this. It's entirely possible to be informed and impartial. It may be that Randi has more of an agenda to see the subject fail, than be fairly tested. Although I don't assume that to be true, it wouldn't be good science if it were. It would be very difficult to refute impartial, carefully documented research from an accepted scientific body, which took educated counter-measures against possible fraud. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-11-29 01:46, Wolflock wrote: I think the vast majority understands that magicians are doing tricks, not real magic. Also, most magicians when asked would probably not claim to have actual magic powers. People go to see magicians to be entertained; I believe most people that pay psychics are hoping for advice or help with their life. I've said it before, but a really simple challenge would be to start posting predictions here at the Café, if there's anyone here who believes they can predict the future. |
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enriqueenriquez Inner circle New York 1287 Posts |
“Science, religion, society and so many things have advanced, why is it that psychics are always un-able to be proven? ”
Well, as far as I know, even the most advanced religions haven’t been able to prove god’s existence. Curiously, religious people doesn’t feel the need to “prove” that, but they keep preaching and asking for money. I guess Randi has been to busy with the psychics and all these small thief until now, but I trust that very soon he will be able to make some time and go after the big frauds: organized religions, the Pope, a couple of rabbi, the Dalai lama... Our hero is going to go after these bad guys also, Right? After all, all what can’t be proved must be eliminated. Right? We know what we are talking about... We know Cold Reading and the Center Tear... So, kill an indian, burn a witch, ban a book, torture a cat... Oh gosh... Enlightenment is fun! |
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