"Funny how there are MORE discussions on Dave Dee (Good, bad or indifferent) when it comes to success and marketing of magic than ANY other single person... just noticing, that's all."

Gee, ain't it funny that the more "discussions" about Dave Dee that there are, the more money Dave makes? Say whatever you want about Dave (He probably couldn't care less either way), I'm sure he sleeps quite well at night. The big difference between Dave and "magicians" is, Dave makes money while he sleeps, and watches TV, and takes his family on vacation. While you're out busting your hump doing 47 birthday parties every weekend, Dave's sitting at home making money.

Is (or was) Dave a "dominant" performer in the Atlanta area? Who cares? Is what Dave teaches (or anybody else for that matter)"valid" or "effective"? Sure. If you're willing to handle the "due diligence". The vast majority of people are just to darn "lazy" to do the work to get the work. They all want the "magic bullet" to getting rich. Bad news, there ain't no magic bullet! Work in = Money out! Simple!

Do ALL of these books, courses, tapes, or whatever work ALL of the time for EVERYBODY? No! Can they work for you? Yes! IF (and ONLY if!)you are willing to do the work necessary to make them work! And some of them ARE work.

Look, if you're not willing to do the work on the front end, don't be sorely disappointed when there's no money on the back end. And by the way, doing the work doesn't mean reading it once and putting it back up on the shelf to gather dust.

Don't get hung up on the "More shows = More money" mentality. That only works to a point. By using more effective marketing, raising your fees to what they SHOULD be, finding "passive" streams of income, and other strategies, you can make a ton more money and work a heck of a lot less doing it. You WON'T learn how to do that at some magic shop. You WILL learn how to do that by actually USING the information you got in these courses.

"Work Less = Make More" is a GOOD thing!

BTW, while you were reading this post, Dave made more money. Oh, and so did I.

Scott

AMEN to that.

I am the perfect example. I once thought all of those systems and books were hog-wash and a scam and I really never gave it a second thought. That was until I wanted to take the next step in my magic career and had no idea how I was going to do it.

It dawned on me that sitting on my butt waiting for the phone to ring just was not going to happen and there HAD to be something more I could do on my own. I also realized that it was unfair of me to judge any book or system out there unless I have actually read it or given it a try. How do I know it would not work unless I was willing to do it myself.

So I started reading more about marketing and taking a look at these system and I realized that not all of it was hog-wash as I had thought it was. Most of the information was pretty amazing and an eye-opener for me. I started learning a lot more and taking action upon what I read.

I did realize that no one system is perfect for everyone as is. That goes for Dave's course or anyones/ It is the principles therein that are the key. You learn good marketing ideas and tips, you take action upon those tips and then rework the system into one that fits you and the market you are targeting. In a sense you learn to adapt these strategies.

But no bit of marketing from any book or system will ever gain you results if you are not committed to success in the first place. There simply is no MAGIC pill that makes you an instant success. You must do some hard work and you first must realize that it will take time, ambition and drive to make it happen. You can not give up if something fails. You learn why it fails by tracking your results and you strive to learn from a failure and try something else next time. You get back on the horse.

Now I have never read Dee's course or information so I can not way one way or another about it. But I can imagine that the ideas therein are probably good ones and good concepts that are at least worth my looking into and trying. In most systems, if you book one show from what you have read, then you have already paid for it.

Was he a success in his performance area? I am not sure on that either. I do not know his background. But I do know he must be doing something right if everyone keeps taking about him and his name keeps coming up qwhen mentioning marketing systems for magic.

As I said, I have never met him or read his system, but this is just my humble opinion.

Kyle

Of course, we don't KNOW that he's making money "right now", do we?

But, I just checked my Paypal account, and I DID make money while I was on this forum (he-he).

Problem is, and I bought the system, is you can get the core stuff much cheaper by buying the Dan Kennedy books, which are what Dave uses for his system.

My sole area these days is school's and his 5 page letter idea is simply not effective for that market. Other ideas in the book are of better value such as his birthday party concepts.

Bottom line, he will give you your money back, I never asked for it, so let that guide you a bit.

The bottom line is you simply can not take stuff from any system "as is" You must learn to take the general idea and prinicples and adapt them to you and your own market. Test them out for yourself, adapt them to your show and market and track the results.

Kyle

Yes, Dave adapted Dan Kennedy's ideas but that's certainly not a bad thing. For under $200 (standard version,) you get Dan Kennedy's great marketing methods customized specifically to a magician's market. Do you know how much time it would take to create the marketing materials supplied in the course?

I own a lot of Dan Kennedy material (I owned it before I got Dave's course) and, honestly, I thought it was a great deal for me to have Dave's material. It's much easier to adapt his marketing letters and ads to my market than to use Dan Kennedy's models and completely rework them. (Notice, I said it's easier. You certainly can work from Dan's letters, as well.)

My bottom line, if I get one idea out of a course that pays for it, than I'm happy. One birthday party sold because of an idea in the Ultimate Information System and it's paid for. (Really, would you only use that idea only one time?)

As for his Inner Circle, again, it all comes down to what you do with the materials he provides. Take the time to mail out the client newsletter, follow some of the ideas and you'll likely make money. If not, cancel you membership. Otherwise, why worry about it?

MIKE:

very nicely stated. That is exactly it. Even if you get just 1 gig from what you find inside the system, it pays for itself. For me, I KNOW I got a lot more then just 1 gig from the systems I have bought and used.

Kyle

It still amazes me that most guys wouldn't invest a couple hundred bucks into a course or book or even an $800 "boot camp" that could potentially earn them thousands of dollars (or a whole lot more!), but they'll spend a bunch going to some "magic convention" and buy a trunkload of junk that won't make them a dime. Like it or not, "magic tricks" don't make you money.

Every reputable information products publisher (Yes, that means Dave Dee too) offers a full money-back guarantee. If you're not happy with the course, and you've done your "due diligence" as far as making the program work, they will be more than happy to give you your money back. No questions asked. Try that with some "magic trick".

If you want to be a "professional" and are serious about making money, you can't afford NOT to invest in these marketing tools.


Scott

I know in my own case, not only did I make my money back with the first marketing tip I tired, I made well over a few thousand more that year just from the information in the course and trying out and adapting the ideas for myself. It certainly was worth the effort and investment I made. I would much rather have powerful knowledge like that then to have tricks and pops that sit on a shelf collecting dust.

Kyle

In terms of investment, its not just the money, its the time.

(quote) The only thing I really found objectionable about Dave Dee's stuff was the pitch to the kids at the end of the birthday party. I don't remember the exact script, but he was teaching the kids how to go home and beg their parents to have Dave Dee do their birthday party. I'd be freaking embarassed to do something like that! Does it work for him? (/quote)

I agree with Mike Robbins. Some of the techniques are embarrassing. They reek of desperation and tackyness.

(quote) Most magicians must market to get work (/quote)

True, I guess. I would say most magicians NEED market to get work. This is b/c they lack a high enough quality act to book on word of mouth alone. (I'm not saying that I have such an act - but I've seen some. I do work a lot with no mass marketing). Trust me, there are guys in every market doing NOTHING but putting on a great show and working a ton. One fairly famous magician remarked at a lecture that he had stopped handing out cards because he was so busy with work generated from refferals alone.

Anyway, no offense to anyone. Everyone's situation is different, and subject to change.

On the other hand I can name you COUNTLEES great acts and great performers who have and are not going anywhere. The reason is simple. People will not book you unless they know who you are and you give them a reason to. If you have a great show, and no one knows about it, then you are wasting your time sitting by the phone wishing for it to ring. You must go out there, take action and let people know what you have to offer them. This is marketing.

Now certainly you may reach a level where you get the gigs you are comfortable at and what you want to do. Then yes, you may cut back on your marketing, but you still are probably doing a lot of relationship building with these clients. Just having a great show is marketing in the sense that you are being s solutions provider to the client and solving a direct need of theirs.

Kyle

I am going to say one thing and keep my mouth shut...maybe?
All of these guys that say, full money back 100 percent guarantee fail to mention that you will only get it back if you try the methods first....after a few months etc.......

You can't just send it back the next day and ask for your money back.....I own a few of them and so I speak from experience.....I should've listened when a few of them said to me this, "YOu probably won't benefit as much from my materials based upon where you are at currently in your career

I am suprised someone said that to you. I have found that most every system or book I have bought so far has been very helpful and full of insight and tips that I still use today. If they did say that, then they should have offered you your money back unless stated clearly otherwise in their ads etc.

Kyle

That's a good point Rey Rey.

For my Success in Magic course, I offer a 90-day refund policy that is clearly stated on the website. I specify that you must be willing to not only read the materials, but also to apply the strategies and techniques. I do not want any "tire-kickers," only serious students.

To qualify for the refund I ask that clients do three things:

1. Arrange for their free coaching session within thirty days of your purchase. I want the opportunity to discuss their goals in greater detail.
2. Document that they completed some of the activities in the Quick Start Workbook.
3. Provide specific feedback about how the course did not meet their needs or expectations.

If someone is not happy with the course I want to know about it, and I want the opportunity to fix it.

There are two reasons for the stipulations on my guarantee.

One, if someone buys it in the downloadable file format, the reality is that they do not actually return anything. They get their refund and get to keep the course. I want to eliminate any unscrupulous people who might want to try to get a free product.

And, two, I am convinced that if someone is serious and really takes action, then they will be satified with their investment.

Even though that is clearly stated on my website, the reality is that if someone was really unhappy but didn't do all three things specified, I would probably refund their money anyway. I really strive for satisfied customers and want the feedback.

Jim

PS: I do hope you weren't refering to me in your original posting.

Well I can certainly say I am one that is MORE then satified with Jim's information and with the tele-conferences he has done form time to time and the info he shares here. Thank you Jim.

Kyle

Many good points have been made in this thread. I would seriously recommend for you to also check out the marketing books written by Dan Kennedy. If you take the time to read through some of them you will find that a certain someone's marketing system is pretty much a direct take from Dan. Slighty modified of course. Bottom line is...you have to do the work. So many people spend endless amounts of time talking about what they're going to do and they never do anything. To me the formula is simple....have a GOOD, SOLID show.....and perform it. Word of mouth can work wonders and really set a performer into a nice comfortable place. Too many people spend time trying to "fluff" the truth of their performance. They tell everyone how great they are, etc, etc. We've all seen it. Be honest with your clients, deliver what you promise, price fair, and good things will happen.

Absolutely look at Dan Kennedy's stuff. He has great ideas and marketing know-how that can eb applied to anyone no matter what your product or service is.

Bill is also right. No system will ever work for you unless you are 100% committed to your own success. This means getting off your seat and actually going out there and taking action and making it happen for yourself. Success takes work and is not handed to you. You must be driven to want it. seek it and go after it.

Just make sure that no matter what marketing you do, that you have a show and a performance to back it up. No amount of marketing will make you a success for too long if your show and what you provide to the client is weak and poor.

Just my 2 cents.

Kyle

Bill is right about having a good solid show. Word of mouth is the best form of advertising. Even the best promotional materials won't overcome a weak show.

Truth be told, IF you view marketing as outbound communication only, I am not that great of marketer of my own services. My primary marketing strategies have always been referrals, spin-off bookings, networking, showcasing and publicity. I do no cold calling and little, if any direct mail. But it's enough to keep me busy with over 100 dates each year.

Happy holidays everyone.
Jim Snack

I guess I am not very serious and I haven't taken much action....?

I am not trying to single out your course, I merely wanted to make it known that 100% full money back does have some disclaimers or requirments. You aren't the only one using this "Offer" as a sales tactic to buy the course with nothing to lose.

Overall, your course does touch on the essentials of successful marketing and offers some wonderful links to websites for more information. The information would've been better instead of just go to www.so and so and find out for yourself.

Personally, I would've liked to have seen some of your work or marketing materials as a basis of comparison instead of the rudimentary steps to successful marketing which is more for those new to the process.

I plan to someday offer my own course of action which is targeted to specific goals.
You can reciprocate the favor by purchasing my course, if you'd like?~r2

Rey Rey,

You will have to tell me a bit more about your course as I might be interested in hearing your ideas as I am also involved in a writing project of my own at the moment. Good luck with it.

Kyle