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travisb Special user Vancouver, BC 546 Posts |
With respect, the issue of libraries IS relevant to this discussion. At my local library I can borrow, for example, Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic, learn a trick from it, and return the book to the library. I've done this. I've also borrowed other magic books and videos. But not just that. I can borrow (and have) the latest books on how to use advanced computer software (very expensive books, and with a short shelf life, due to upgrades--making it unlikely I will need to buy the book after reading it), as well as new novels still in hardcover. Am I stealing from the authors? What about all the other people who read those books? Is each one of them a "lost sale"? Are libraries therefore an unethical institution? What about all the hard work the authors put into their books, only to have them read by people who didn't have to pay?
I do agree that it is usually unethical to borrow the material and photocopy it, or dub it, or whatever. In some cases though, I'd make exceptions. For example, a university student who can't afford to buy all her textbooks, and so borrows them from the library and photocopies them. I have no problem with that. I'm sure I could think of other cases. As far as I can tell, I pretty much agree with "Wellington" on the subject, and with whoever pointed out that used books stores, radio etc. help drive the market. In my own case, I got back into magic through watching tricks on the internet, then going to the library, and then buying some videos after I had focused enough to determine what would be really useful for me. It took exposure to a lot of free content to get me to buy stuff! Stuff I likely never would have bought without having access to the free material. And, exposure to the free stuff also helped me figure out what I DIDN'T want, helping me avoid regretful purchasing decisions! In the case of your poll, I would say that it's unethical to trade a downloadable item if you retain a copy, but fine so long as you delete the file--but I wouldn't count on people deleting their files after trading or selling them. So yes, if you're really concerned about it, then don't release downloadable files. I agree that this discussion is very interesting. One reason for that is that I don't think there is yet a clear consensus on the ethics of the subject. Maybe there never will be; there is a deeper ideological argument in play here about copyright and property rights in general. Perhaps in the absence of clear ethical rules, it's best to simply be pragmatic. If copying is hurting YOU, then do something about it, but don't necessarily assume that your experience generalizes. Martin Amis would still be able to put food on his table if we had three times the number of libraries we do today. (He doesn't have to worry until somebody finally brings to market a cheap, readable handheld e-book, and e-book files start getting traded like mp3s... ) |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Just for the record, I would like to point out that Wellington's "fair use" comments apply only to the US. Not surprisingly, different countries have different copyright laws.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Jaxon Inner circle Kalamazoo, Mi. 2537 Posts |
If you barrowed an instructional video or PDF file (Any kind of digitally transfered instructional). Can you return it?
Sorry, I still feel deeply on this part of the issue. I really don't think all this is an issue of what's legal or not. The masked magicians thing proved that. It's more an issue of ethics and respect I think. Ron Jaxon |
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what Special user Lehi, UT, USA 643 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-12-13 15:43, Jaxon wrote: Yes. You can return it. In fact, you can return it annotated, inverted, re-illustrated, color corrected, and/or spell checked. If you remove the file from your computer, then you can return it just as well as you can return a book. And you can return it faster. You can trade/modify digital material much faster and easier than you can trade printed material. Digital distribution makes possible a whole new market for 1 trick at a time educational material to be sold which could not effectively be sold before, but the marketplace is very much in its infancy, and as a society, we are just starting to figure out how we are going to tame it. Many of the paid downloads might not happen if the buyer thought that he couldn't share it with his buddies. It is a bold new marketplace with very little policing, or governing. Does this make it ethical to copy downloadable manuscripts and videos? NO. It does not.
Magic is fun!!!
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travisb Special user Vancouver, BC 546 Posts |
Well then have I, and the millions (billions?) of others who have used libraries, committed an ethical transgression by borrowing books and keeping the content in our heads?
Returning or not returning the book isn't really the issue, is it? I don't think anybody disagrees that copying something you've borrowed or downloaded is some kind of an ethical breach. But I don't think it's quite so clearcut as you stated originally. And I quite agree that it's not an issue of legality, but rather an issue of ethics. This is what makes it so difficult. |
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Jaymz023 Veteran user Midwest 356 Posts |
I don't know if this has been said or not, but can't you create a password that is unique to each PDF you sell. That would allow you to "trace" the person giving them away. Atleast you would know who it is and could let others know so they don't sell to that person.
Just a thought. Also is it wrong to rent a instructional magic video from the library?? My library has some available to check out....
Creator of "Re-Attached" an easy piece by piece Torn and Restored card routine.
http://www.lybrary.com/reattached-p-250.html |
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Muddy Elite user 449 Posts |
Interesting discussion ... Another point to consider ... and Im not a lawyer so I could be completely wrong, but here's my take anyway:
Copyright has nothing to do with the concept of the trick (the ideas). The only protection the seller has is that his documentation is automatically copyrighted (wheher or not he/she registered or explicitly stated so) and no one can legally COPY the documentaion. There are no contracts or Terms and Conditions distributed with magic tricks that I have seen, I don't think that there are any patents involved, so from a legal standpoint I think I would be able to: 1) trade my trick "A" for your trick "B" as long as no copies are made. I can still perform both A and B 2) sell my trick "A" to you flat out as long as no copy is retained. I can still perform A 3) teach trick "A" to someone else for a profit I don't actually do any of the 3 ... I just don't see how any would be breaking a law. My guess is that you might be able to patent some of these tricks for full protection ... but that is costly of course. Legal issues aside ... is there a "magicians code of ethics" that isn't documented but understood so that magicians wont do any of the 3? |
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rospahr New user New York City 17 Posts |
Seems to me the idea of electronic media is confusing the issue. This topic can be divided into two parts:
1) A legal issue of copyright, and copyright infringement. 2) Magicians ethical code of behavior. REGARDING THE ISSUE OF COPYRIGHT AND DIGITAL MEDIA: It is legal to sell used books, movies and music. I also have the right to make a back up copy of an electronic book, movies and music. I can have my friend borrow and read my book, much the way the library does. The digital world does not have the same limits as the physical world. It is easy to let my friend borrow my ebook, while also retaining a copy for myself. The laws have not caught up to this situation. In the physical world, while my friend borrows my book, I no longer have a copy to read until my friend returns it. Making a digital copy does not deprive the author or publisher of their physical property as would be the case if I went to the store and physically stole a book. But making a digital copy for a friend, of a copyrighted work IS copyright infringement. REGARDING A MAGICIANS ETHICAL CODE OF BEHAVIOR: Once you read a book, or watch a DVD, your resale of the item is just that, the resale of a physical or digital item. The magical knowledge assuming it is a magic book, or the mathematical knowledge assuming it is a mathematic text book, does not have a bearing on the resale of the item. Some magicians treat their copyrighted book/instructions/DVD as a license to perform an effect. _IF_ that were true, then obviously you need to own the copyrighted item in order to perform the effect. (It is of no consequence whether this copyrighted item were physical or digital) If you choose to sell the item, you no longer have a performance license even if you have the knowlege. So in conclusion, I think the issue is really an ethical one, not a legal copyright one. Do you need to own the book/instructions/DVD in order to perform an effect? If you readily answer yes, what if you are purchasing not an original effect, but a new take on a classic? For example the Ninja Rings. I purchase Shoot's DVD, and over time I make a routine that is only inspired by his. At what point does it become my own, and not a version of Shoot's? At what point am I no longer performing Shoot's Ninja Rings? I already had knowledge of the gaff, so in this case I was purchasing his presentation secrets. At what point would I no longer need to ethically own the DVD in order to perform 4.5" linking rings? I do not have specific answers to these questions. I think it is a personal question all magicians must ask themselves and answer for themselves. Just some recent thoughts... -- Robert
"We drive into the future using only our rearview mirror."
-- Marshall McLuhan |
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Jaxon Inner circle Kalamazoo, Mi. 2537 Posts |
Great points everyone!
I got a question and the names and books I mention are just examples to make to make my point. Ok, let's say you where hanging around with another magician. He shows you a trick and you really like it. you ask him if it's available anywhere. he just happens to have the book in his case with him and he pulls it out. Then says, " Go ahead and borrow it if you want". Let's say it's a book from Paul Harris. So you barrow the book and learn, learn a few things from it then return the book to your friend. Now lets say you meet Paul Harris a few months later. You perform one of the tricks you learned from his book while he's present. Would you tell you him learned it when you "Borrowed" his book from your friend? I'm guessing your wouldn't tell him that you didn't purchase it yourself. Something inside would tell you that it would be rude to tell him that. I'm only assuming here. What do you think? Ron Jaxon |
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Muddy Elite user 449 Posts |
Jaxon,
Since I am new to magic I have to relate this to my professional life (Im an engineer). If I were consulting for someone and I used an equation from a borrowed book where the author had derived that equation, I would have no problem discussing this with the author and he would likely be proud someone were using his technique, and wouldnt necessarily care whether I had purchased his book or not. The moment he published it he fully expected (likely even desired) his material to circulate and be used (both as sold books, references to his book in papers, verbal discussions, classroom lectures, etc). Now if I purchased a license to use a patented process and signed an agreement with someone I certainly would be bound to not share the documentation and ideas. This is a completely different situation. It seems that it isn't so cut and dry with magic though. Thanks for such a thought provoking thread, btw. |
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
I certainly agree with Muddy, once published expecting that it will only be used by those who purchase is a pretty unrealistic expectation.
Anyone thinking they are going to get rich selling magic literature to us small band of conjurors is also having illusions. (illusions of grandure that is). The purpose for writing is to share and to make a name for oneself in a profession and as a byproduct, hopefully make enough to make it worth one's time.
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Jaxon Inner circle Kalamazoo, Mi. 2537 Posts |
I agree with that Muddy. But as you also mentioned "It seems that it isn't so cut and dry with magic though."
Ok, just about every profession and most in that profession has there "trade secrets". But magic is all secrets. (I know perform isn't all secrets but without the magic we wouldn't last long as magicians. We'd have to title ourselves something else). This can't be looked at in the matter of law. It just won't fit this issue. I for one am glad about that. Law's aren't made by magicians and if laws started to be passed on this issue then non-magicians would have to have a say in it. Unless they started learning the secrets and actually becoming a magician they would have no idea how to see it through the eye of someone who creates these tricks. This would make us magicians look greedy and selfish. Maybe even worse. It's sometimes hard for us to imagine this because we are "on the inside" of magic so to speak. We know many of the secrets. We know that some of them are hard to pull off but someone could understand the method when explained very easily. What's sometimes hard to imagine is that many non-magicians think we are part of some secret society. One's who heavily guard there secrets. We know we don't guard them as well as we could but many think this way. Look at how far they pushed this with the masked magicians thing. I know it seems like I'm getting off topic so let me try and bring it back around, Because most laws don't apply, because most fields aren't so heavily dependent on the secrets of there craft and as Frank mentioned. Not many could get rich selling there creations (even when they are good ones. and I totally agree with that). Because of all these reasons. Examples of library, buying other objects. Buying used books in other fields. They just don't fit in this issue because of the reasons I just stated. I firmly believe in the "credit where it is due" philosophy. I feel it applies to this discussing too. We just gotta use judgement. Not the law. Just a few more thougths. Ron Jaxon |
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Muddy Elite user 449 Posts |
I said that because I noticed a surprising split of opinions on the issue in this thread. It's clear to me from my little ordered and neat engineering world, but now I find myself in a magical world where someone I respect may sell me a document and then be offended if I share an idea from that document with a fellow magician. From the looks of this thread maybe some would be offended and others not. Of course Im not worried about getting sued over such an issue, but I certainly don't want to offend fellow magicians either.
I'm curious as to how members of our community would answer the following questions ... I hope this gets a lot of responses: 1) Did the folks that released a DVD with an effect similar to Ander Moen's Healed and Sealed Soda do anything wrong? 2) Did Giobbi do anything wrong when he published the ideas of dozens of other magicians in his Card College series? Note: I did not express an opinion on either 1 or 2 above ... I am just soliciting responses to the queries. |
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rospahr New user New York City 17 Posts |
Publishing someone else's ideas without their permission is clearly in a different realm than purchasing a magic book/notes/DVD (physical or digital), and then reselling it.
This thread is complicated and actually carries several different ideas regarding intellectual property, copyright, and ethics. -- Robert
"We drive into the future using only our rearview mirror."
-- Marshall McLuhan |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Frankly, even though the original thread was about copying and copyright, I have to reiterate that the only way to effectively fight this is to change the sales paradigm so that it makes piracy just too expensive (over purchasing something outright).
While copyright law is clearly stated regarding fair use (by teachers for dissemination, for instance, or by reviewers), it is also clear about use of content for profit - that's not allowed, regardless of who is doing it - teacher, university or P2P exchange. If money changes hands and the copyright holder has not licensed the person doing the sale (eg a magic store that bought the books FOR resale from the copyright holder or his agents, distributors, etc.) then there is a clear violation and, according to what I understand of the Uniform Commercial Code, violations can run to $10,000 per violation. That means, in court, per copy sold. Needless to say, getting caught and prosecuted can run into serious bucks because not only does the violator have to (usually) recompense the copyright holder the usual price of the materials illegally sold, but they also face a serious fine of lots of money! One answer to this is for those who find out that someone is illegally copying their material is the court system. This is costly, but possible and, as this may amount to a civil tort (check with an attorney on that - I am NOT one) and may be done on a contingency basis (which means that you pay court costs and other costs abd the lawyer only gets paid if you win -usually one-third of the award). I am not an attorney, so please make sure you check on this before you act on it. But, from my own experineces in matters like this, this is pretty much how it works to the best of my recollection. Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Steinbock New user Maine 76 Posts |
Man, has this been a hot topic or what?!?
At the outset, I can say categorically that I've never sold or traded any magic books, tricks, or videos - digital or otherwise. I respect intellectual property rights. BUT I also think we've taken it too far. In the world of print literature, copyrights keep getting extended and extended to decades beyond the death of the creator. I don't know the precise laws, but I find it frightening. I have written three books (non-magic) that are currently in print, and I appreciate the royalty checks I get each year. But I don't expect my great-grandchildren to still be receiving royalties on my work a century from now. Heck, if intellectual property rights are permanent and ongoing (as I know some creators on other boards have argued) then the Bible would be under copyright. Every time children sing the "Happy Birthday" song over a cake, their parents would be legally obligated to pay ASCAP. But I digress. I think Jaxon's point pertains to digital videos and manuscripts (although he didn't say it in his first post). And I agree with him that it is immoral to download and distribute someone else's work unless it was intended for that purpose. But I agree with Frank that Jaxon's use of "Never" and "Ever" is a bit hyperbolic. If you apply Jaxon's Law beyond digital distribution rights, then every one of us who has ever bought a used book or record, or borrowed anything from a friend, neighbor, or library is an outlaw (or at the very least, a sinner). I know, I'm rambling. One last point: We do have special rules and traditions in the Magic world that afford us more intellectual property protection than in the world outside magic. Where else but in magic do videos come labelled "Not For Rental"? Where else but in magic can merchants say without impunity that "we sell secrets - all sales are final"? In fact, were it not for message boards like this one - which allow consumers to post reviews of products - I'd say that things were tilted so far in favor of magic merchants and distributors that it is unfair to the buyer who can't return an item that doesn't live up to his needs or expectation. So friends, don't steal other people's digital property. But let's not go overboard. I gotta go have dinner. |
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Jaxon Inner circle Kalamazoo, Mi. 2537 Posts |
What do you think of this idea? I don't know how to do it but it might just eliminate the "trading" aspect.
If a self disintegrating file can be made. For example a PDF file can be downloaded. The information printed out then after a set period of time the file erases itself. The person who got the file will still have all the information. They'll be able to keep there printed copy. But they won't be able to pass this on to anyone else in the form of a file. If they where to trade or resell it they would have to send the printed copy, or copy the printed pages. It could still be traded and resold but it would make it a little more difficult then to simple Email it to someone with a mouse click. And the file wouldn't end up on p2p (What ever that is). Just a thought. Ron Jaxon |
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
Interesting, but I don't think it would be very effective.
For a start it would discriminate against those people who didn't have a printer but wanted to store their library electronically. And if thy were of that mind, they could easily scan their printed copy and distrubute the file as a tif, jpeg or similar. I'm very much against piracy, but it's impossible to stop by some technical means. I think you have to stress the moral viewpoint and rely on people's honesty. |
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Muddy Elite user 449 Posts |
Distributing in Microsoft Reader format would help a lot if you are concerned with piracy ... at least I havent heard of any active hacking and sharing of locked Microsoft Reader e-books (someone correct me if I am wrong). I know MSFT has said in no uncertain terms that they are very interested in any such info and would agressively pursue it ...
For those unfamiliar with Microsoft Reader, the software is free, but when you purchase a locked ebook it works on your machine only ... you can email it to whomever you wish, but it wont work on their machine. Of course this wont eliminate the problem ... but will help a lot I believe. |
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rhinomax Regular user 188 Posts |
Who would sell thier books tapes and dvds to me that's like selling the family cow keep a library you will go back to year after year
NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE FEW TO CHANGE THE WORLD "THATS USUALY HOW IT WORKS" MARGRET MEAD
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