The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Dai Vernons Cups and Balls routine (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
Arkadia
View Profile
Special user
Sweden, Sundsvall
866 Posts

Profile of Arkadia
I am workin' on Dai Vernons cups and balls routine right now. I like the basic pattern but belive that there's to many hand-to-hand-to-hand-vanish movements. You are supposed to pick up a ball with your left hand, throw it to you right hand and then place it in your left hand which puts it in your pocket. Natural, no I don't think so. (I am using Dai Vernons Book of Magic as my referense.)

How do you solve this problem?

/Ark
Don't miss out on the great new mentalist magic: www.metalwriting.com
BerkleyJL
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago, IL
397 Posts

Profile of BerkleyJL
I generally like to do two classic passes followed by a wand vanish that (without saying so outright) demonstrates the ball is really in the left hand to contradict any theories on how the vanishes are being accomplished. For the two classic passes, you can tip the cup dropping the ball into the left hand and talk about the ball as you show it to both sides of the audience...ending with the ball in the right hand. Then you pass it to the left to put it away.

Or you could learn the classic pass ambidextrously, which I'm working on but not confident with yet.
I need a stage name.

Joe Berkley
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
There is no reason not to alter the Dai Vernon routine. In Vernon's hands it made sense, but if you feel uncomfortable, substitute anything you like for that vanish.

Check some of DeCova's work on the cups and balls for alternative ideas.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11159 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Quote:
On 2004-12-21 14:40, Bill Palmer wrote:
There is no reason not to alter the Dai Vernon routine. In Vernon's hands it made sense, but if you feel uncomfortable, substitute anything you like for that vanish.



This is the best advice I've seen for any magic, in some time!

Quote:

Check some of DeCova's work on the cups and balls for alternative ideas.


I am not familiar with this name. Can you give a source, please?

~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Kent Wong
View Profile
Inner circle
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2458 Posts

Profile of Kent Wong
From a theoretical perspective, I also did not like the repetitive hand-to-hand vanishes in the Vernon routine. I have always believed that a magician should not perform the same effect, using the same method, for the same audience in the same show. By doing so, you are just begging to get busted. Yet, that's exactly what you are doing by repeating the exact same vanish several times in a row.

As a result, I use a different type of vanish in each case. So it is the same effect in each case, but using a different method. I start with a false transfer; then I do a fist vanish; then I do a wand vanish. All of this then flows into the wand spin for the production of the three balls.

That's pretty much all of the Vernon routine that I adopted. Other aspects of my routine come from Tommy Wonder, David Regal and Michael Ammar. I just did a "pick and choose" of the various moves I liked and developmed my routine accordingly.
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________
<BR>
<BR>www.kentwongmagic.com
Jim Wilder
View Profile
Special user
Birmingham, AL
954 Posts

Profile of Jim Wilder
Quote:
On 2004-12-21 13:54, Arkadia wrote:
I am workin' on Dai Vernons cups and balls routine right now. I like the basic pattern but belive that there's to many hand-to-hand-to-hand-vanish movements. You are supposed to pick up a ball with your left hand, throw it to you right hand and then place it in your left hand which puts it in your pocket. Natural, no I don't think so. (I am using Dai Vernons Book of Magic as my referense.)

How do you solve this problem?

/Ark


My routine is derivative of Vernon's, but I do not make all the transfers as you've mentioned. I just pick up with the right, toss it in the air, catch it with the right, and then FT to the left.

Though, I will state that I honestly believe that garden variety lay people just simply do not care or think about it. And that statement is not being lazy in terms of thought or performance. I have just found that to be true the more lay audiences I have played to.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Re: DeCova -- Alexander DeCova is a German magician, currently living in Vienna. He put out a set of videos, called DeCova's Treasures (I believe). One of them had a vanish from John Carney that is one of the most deceptive vanishes I have ever seen. It is definitely worth the price of the tape.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
DwightPA
View Profile
Regular user
Dwight Powell
113 Posts

Profile of DwightPA
There are some (I believe the late Mike Rogers was one) who feel that the pass should not vary; that consistency is the best.

Dwight Powell
pepka
View Profile
Inner circle
Uh, I'm the one on the right.
5041 Posts

Profile of pepka
I, like most of us here, perform a variation of the Vernon routine. The passes back and forth are meant to be done casually, playing with the ball. I have eliminated them at the beginning of the routine and replaced with the wand through the hand, wand spin, and a vanish of Tommy Wonder. The final vanish is in the books of Wonder and also on his DVDs. It is so beautiful and simple. Check it out!
Dave V
View Profile
Inner circle
Las Vegas, NV
4825 Posts

Profile of Dave V
The hand to hand... to hand, is easily justified by the actions of displaying the balls. If you're right handed, it stands to reason you would lift the cup with your right hand, tipping the ball into your waiting left hand. Then, to show the crowd (there IS a crowd, right?) you show it first on your outstretched palm to your left, then you pick it up with your right hand and show the people on your right. Now, since your hand is full and you need to pick up the wand it's a natural action to "drop" the ball back into your left hand and grab the wand.

Cellini would vary the transfers a bit for each. One time a simple false transfer, another would be a french drop, and so on... No fancy wand vanishes, "push through" vanishes, or wand spins. Just showing (and vanishing) the balls.

Put that way, it all makes sense.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Whitewolfny
View Profile
Loyal user
216 Posts

Profile of Whitewolfny
I'm using the basic Vernon routine but my patter right now is targeting a specific audience for whom I will be performing in March. I'm doing a talk to a local professional purchasing organization talking about problems of tracking inventory. The beginning of my talk will be a short scenario using the cups and balls to demonstrate the problems of tracking inventory. I plan to use a standard tip over load to pick up the ball in my left hand, explaining the "parts" must be picked from the inventory shelf. I will casually transfer the ball to my right hand and explain "the parts are sent to manufacturing." I make the FT at this time and use the "flashy stick" to represent the computer transaction that removes the part from inventory. The moves and stages of my routine are Vernon's but the patter idea is mine. I don't toss the ball back and forth from hand to hand, just a single transfer to set up the vanish or FT. Hope this helps.
Braxton Mannar
<BR>Just an old dog trying to learn new tricks Smile
Tilman
View Profile
Regular user
156 Posts

Profile of Tilman
Bill, Michael,

the move Bill mentions is indeed on DeCova's Treasures Vol. 2. Quoting a remark of mine from another thread where Bill recommended the same move: I do not remember Alexander DeCova crediting Carney. In workshops, DeCova teaches the move as something one might want to learn before attempting the Vernon/Mora wand spin vanish (because one can practice the st**l before mastering the spin). I recall him crediting Tommy Wonder as providing the inspiration for the move. As there is indeed a very similar, though not exactly identical (it does not use the wand), move in Wonder's routine, I guess that this is DeCova's source.

Arkadia,

as you talk about putting the balls into the pockets after the fake transfer, I guess you speak about the final load sequence rather than about the opening sequence of the routine. I do not know which portion you refer to exactly, but at some point, hand-to-hand shifting can be avoided when the hand which takes a ball from under a cup (that is temporarily lifted by the other hand) in the same action s*c***ly lo*ds another ball under the cup when the cup is replaced. This is done by releasing the second ball from pinky p**m when the cup is set down. The hand that takes and l**ds can then proceed to fake transfer its ball into the hand that has just set down its cup and now goes to the pocket. Good luck with your routine (send me a private post if you want more details).
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
You may be right about that move, I think it is in Carneycopia, though.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
rikbrooks
View Profile
Inner circle
Olive Branch, Mississippi
1317 Posts

Profile of rikbrooks
I can't imagine any routine that wasn't influenced by Dai Vernon. I have Micheal Ammar's tapes on cups and balls. He learned his routine from The Professor himself. He mentions, towards the end, that Dai would probably have eliminated that move eventually as he was moving to more simplicity.

My routine was influenced by Michael Ammar's understanding of Dai Vernon, and by John Bannon who used multiple final loads and some handling from the Benson Bowl. I don't use the vanish that you mentioned once.


The point is, find what you really like, then change it, make it yours. If we all didn't do that then magic would become pretty boring with us all slavishly following the same script.
Arkadia
View Profile
Special user
Sweden, Sundsvall
866 Posts

Profile of Arkadia
Thanks for all the answers. Will check up some more vanishes and I have been looking through Ammars Stand up Cups and Balls. He uses the wand for the three vanishes. The push throu, striking vanish and dai vernons spin. I hvae problems with the stike vanish because my wand is very heavy and long. But I will hopefully get it right eventually.

I am currently workin on my own routine (in what sense you can say that anything is yours in such an old effect...) I wanted to learn Dai Vernons routine first because of its historical value and the fact that it is one of the most used routines. I will then go from there and work my way towards something that fits me. I am thinking of a colorchange that takes plce during the routine and that I put away all the discoloured balls. "No I only want red balls, why did this one get yellow?" I place the yellow balls under a different cup. And at the end a final load will be revealed under it. This is just thoughts and I'll se what I come up with in the end.

/Ark
Don't miss out on the great new mentalist magic: www.metalwriting.com
KirkG
View Profile
Inner circle
1391 Posts

Profile of KirkG
I think one problem here is the comment, "I wanted to learn Dai Vernons routine first because of its historical value and the fact that it is one of the most used routines."

The Vernon routine takes study to get all out of it that it possesses. I expect those having trouble with the opening vanish sequence have never had the opportunity to see the Professor, in his prime, perform the routine. He is pretty good on the Ammar tape, but it is not his best showing. The psycology behind his routine and move choices is significant. Two vanishes in a row to establish the pattern and then the wand spin, as he hardly ever performed it differently, to cancel any thought as to how he was accomplishing the vanishes set up the audience completely. The revelation of them all under the cups was another smashing blow.

Most performers today, don't get that effect, because they make too much of the tiping off the balls off the CUPS, rather than the tipping off the BALLS off the cups. The cup work should be incidental and or transparent as if you never when near them.

With all due respect to Michael Ammar and his many accomplishments, I disagree with his interpritation of the Vernon routine. I like his own routine, but I would probably make a few modifications as well.

One other tip. Slow down! I am still trying to hold myself back and I have slowed down considerabley. There are a lot of items to keep track of. Simple, well executed vanishes, so they KNOW where the balls is, will make the vanish more impressive. Watch other performers and see how they leave the audience in the dust wonder what went on and how they missed it, rather than blown away by the fact they didn't miss anything and yet the amazing magic happened right under their eyes.

Kirk G
Tom G
View Profile
Inner circle
2744 Posts

Profile of Tom G
I like the Vernon routine and it seems all spectators do. I just don't like
the fake explanation.
KirkG
View Profile
Inner circle
1391 Posts

Profile of KirkG
Tom G.

I agree with the dislike of the fake explanation. I have modified that part so significantly that it works, but doesn't expose any "real" magic.

Kirk
Tom G
View Profile
Inner circle
2744 Posts

Profile of Tom G
I was able to dig out the DeCova tape and he did rework 2 of Vernon's phases.
Some clever stuff.
Tom
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
I am one of those fortunate ones who got to see the Professor do the routine when he was still doing it well. This was in 1972. It was lovely. That's all I can say. Lovely.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Dai Vernons Cups and Balls routine (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.13 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL