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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Dai Vernons Cups and Balls routine (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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BlackShadow
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Getting back to Vernon's routine, Ammar thought the tip off load was OK. I have to say I like both Ammar's and Vernon's handling of this move very much but I have seen it done badly by others so many times.

However, the bits Ammar was hesitant about were the hand to hand transfers and the fake explanation at the end which Jonathon Townsend has already alluded to. Vernon himself had mixed feelings about that phase, but it kind of fitted in with his patter through the routine where he was saying "I'll explain this swindle later." In the tapes I have seen, he seemed to establish good audience rapport and get a lot of laughs with this concept. I don't have the advantage of seeing him perform live as many here have done, but it he seemed to have great empathy with the spectators to me.

Maybe if he'd originated the routine later he would have done more wand vanishes than the left right left movements but then again, the transfer fitted in with his fake exposure, so a lot of the routine, the patter, and the "business" with the audience would need to have been reworked. So although the whole thing may have been cleaner, the total entertainment value could have been affected. We shall never know the answers to that question.
Jonathan Townsend
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Shane is hosting a video clip of Vernon performing the routine.

Did you notice the extra transfers before he did the wand spin only on the third vanish?

I like the way he drops the cups through the cup.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Pete Biro
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My good man, JT, where doth one view the Vernon example?
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
MJ Marrs
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Hey Mr. Biro, what happened to the eye patch? I hope you're not wearing a neck brace the next time I see you on the forum! LOL
Michael Baker
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Yes, Pete. First the eye patch, then one, and then two arm casts... Whatever you are doing, please stop and reconsider your next planned actions. We need you here.

...and tell the surgeon who reattached your left arm that he accidentally put on someone else's right arm.
~michael baker
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Dave V
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Quote:
On 2005-01-09 00:19, Pete Biro wrote:
My good man, JT, where doth one view the Vernon example?


Pete,
Shane is one of our younger Café staff members. You can find the clip on his website at http://www.magicshane.com

It's a video cap of the clip seen at the end of vol 2 of Michael Ammar's C&B video. If you have that video then you've already seen it.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Bill Palmer
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There's a question here of legal issues. Has Shane gotten permission from the people who own the rights to these videos to post them on his web site?
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
BlackShadow
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I liked his cup through cup move. It's fast, and it's better let the cup fall if you have a pad. It's a move which is only going to fool a proportion of the audiencec as compared to other sleights but I think he fooled more than most with it.
Shane Wiker
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Bill,

I don't think L&L owns those videos, but instead can use them because no one else owns them (I could be wrong).

As for the Don Alan video, I got a PM telling me that the video is actually from Glenn Bishop's website, so I took it down.

Shane Wiker
Bill Palmer
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Shane:

SOMEONE owns the videos. The video of Vernon was produced by one of Mark Wilson's companies, and I'm reasonably sure he has retained the rights to it. You might want to check with Michael Ammar about that one, though. I don't want to see you getting in trouble over these things.

Mark gets protective of his stuff from time to time. A few years ago, the Supercuts Hair Salon used a piece of footage of Mark doing one of his sawings with Nani in one of their commercials. They thought it was stock footage. Mark called it a windfall!

It's always best to err on the side of caution when it comes to broadcast footage. If it ran in 1977, it is probably still under copyright, either to Mark or to the broadcasting company.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
BlackShadow
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Well, come on guys, be reasonable. I'm sure Shane's intentions were entirey honourable. The precise letter of the law may say something different, but what harm could posting a low res extract of a vid do, especially if acknowledgement is given to the owners of the copyright, and where the full version may be purchased? It's a great routine which deserves exposure. Who knows how many hundreds may be inspired to work on their own routines or want to study the C&B after viewing even a low res clip on the net of a quality act like this. Who knows how many more may seek to buy the full version for their further use?

I aways think one has to look at the wider picture, and consider the concept of the general good. By being over protective to the point of observing minutiae, we are smothering the development of the magic art.

I'd hope whoever owns the footage would see the sense of having a trailer on sites like Shane's where many aspiring magicians may visit.
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2005-01-10 16:10, Fan Of Classics wrote:
B.T.W. Shane L&L are the ones who have re-released the Vernon Revelation series so why would they not own the rights?


They may not own the rights, but they may have gotten permission to use the clip. Or they may have paid a fee to someone who is a clearing house for these things. This is not an uncommon practice. For example, if you have a show, you can purchase the right to use a piece of copyrighted music for a period of, say, one calendar year. Then you don't have to jump trhough a bunch of hoops with SESAC, BMI or ASCAP every time you work a public, for profit show. But that doesn't give someone who works for you the right to use the tune in his show. Or you may produce a video with a piece of music in it which you have paid the necessary usage fees for. Someone else may purchase the video. This doesn't give him the right to post the music or the video on his web site.

I'm not trying to pick on Shane for putting up the clips. I'm looking out for his interests. I think Shane knows this.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Magnus Eisengrim
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I am impressed with the gentleness and helpfulness of several posters here, especially Mr. Palmer.

Shane, do check the status of your videos and let us know the outcome. I am confident that if you approach the copyright holders in good faith, you will be treated respectfully.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Jonathan Townsend
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Why is this part of the conversation happening on the public side of the BBS?

One couidl well doubt that a posted low quality clip will diminish sales of anyone's product. Likewise it may actually spur interst in a source product if there were one.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Randy Sager
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Quote:
On 2005-01-10 21:41, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Why is this part of the conversation happening on the public side of the BBS?

One couidl well doubt that a posted low quality clip will diminish sales of anyone's product. Likewise it may actually spur interst in a source product if there were one.


Never mind what I had posted was stupid. Of course maybe quite abit of what I say at times could be thought of as that I suppose.
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2005-01-10 21:41, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
One couidl well doubt that a posted low quality clip will diminish sales of anyone's product. Likewise it may actually spur interst in a source product if there were one.


In the case of posting copyrighted material, that is totally immaterial when the legal aspects of it are considered. In copyright/royalty cases, damages from diminished sales are not necessarily the primary consideration.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Shane Wiker
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Please see my response at:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=60

Shane Wiker
BlackShadow
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In the tape of the Vernon routine on the Magic Circus in 1977, how effective do you think the move is where the cup is shown bigger on the inside than the outside by use of the wand. I've done this before, and always thought it somewhat of a tongue in cheek gag, but perhaps I'm not appreciating the power of the move for a fresh audience.
Jonathan Townsend
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Black Shadow, I liked the thing so much that I put it INTO the Ramsay routine, right before the wand goes through the cup. It registers as startling to those who are not skeptical and tongue in cheek to those who are.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Tilman
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Yes, I think this holds true of a number of cup moves. The wand through cup and the cup through cup move probably fall in the same category. The difficult thing is to present them in a way that allows for both interpretations of what is going on.
I still find that difficult. Sometimes, my presentation must have been too much on the serious side and spectators told me afterwards that they 'liked the cups except that stupid thing with the wand and the cup'. On the other hand, after one of these performances someone else also came up afterwards to tell me that the wand passing through the cup was one of the most startling things he had ever seen.

Jonathan, do you have any tips regarding a presentation that allows for both, the tongue in the cheek and the serious interpretation? I would very much like to know how you handle the presentational side of it.
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