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Alexander Marsh Inner circle England 1191 Posts |
Derren has never EVER stated or claimed he uses NLP or Body Language.
He was once asked in an interview what NLP is, and he gave a good answer saying who the fonders are, what its all about and gave his oppinions about it (that its over hyped, evangelical non-sence.) But never has he come out on stage, TV or anywhere else and said "I use NLP and Body Language......", and besides to say such a thing would be gramaticly wrong (how can you 'use' Body Language?!) never mind moraly. We, well many of you, all assumed he did because hes a bloody good actor, ask the next person you meet on the street, Do you you know who Derren Brown is? if they say yes, then ask them, "How do you think he does it?" not one of them will say those 3 letters, N, L, or P.
My stuff: AlexanderMarshMentalism.co.uk
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David Numen Inner circle 2071 Posts |
Maybe it's my faulty memory but I am fairly sure he claimed to use NLP techniques, body language and similar items in his first series. Perhaps someone else could check coz I don't have them to hand.
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salsa_dancer Inner circle 1935 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 08:34, bartlewizard wrote: The whole arrogance thing makes me laugh, especially as it is on a magic forum where the whole premise behind what we do is all about knowing something that the other person doesn't know. If it wasn't we would show them something amazing and then say 'nah - look this is how it is done' and then teach them. I am confused as to where this is going, is it not arrogant to do a 'psychic reading' for someone, because they don't know how to do it? Is it arrogant to entertain people using the techniques we use, because I don't see anyone standing up and saying it is all a trick, oh wait, Derren does do that by explaining that he is fusing a mixture of techniques together. It is arrogant to presume that you know how a show is going to be presented because you have read a few books and seen a couple of TV shows. This whole hobby stinks of arrogance, we have to accept that and move on. Anyway it moves us away from the stated fact that no one really knows what is coming so we have to wait and see don't we? |
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Alexander Marsh Inner circle England 1191 Posts |
But he never said NLP. Just because NLP'ers have looked in to things such as Hypnosis, and intrestingly enough Ideomoter responce, etc.etc. and Derren suggests these things, it does not mean he 'uses' NLP.
NLP isn't a thing, its not a deck of cards, a swami, a gaffed clip bored. Its a name, an abrivated name for what seems to have become a belif system. MAN magicians anoy me, Ive taken this thread horrablie off topic, I must leave now, the leaves are falling from the tree's. Alex.
My stuff: AlexanderMarshMentalism.co.uk
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Pharaoh Nuff Regular user Third stone from the sun 119 Posts |
I think this is going to be one interesting and entertaining show. Possibly debunking and giving insights to areas that 'some people' accept, sometimes stubbornly, without question. The news media especially on certain networks is very manipulating and a lot less factual than it is supposed to be. Documentarys can be quite matter of fact also, but when it comes to an entertainer or artist saying 'something' it seems for some people to cross personal bounderies of taste.
Anybody who particpates in the show and is offended or ridiculed by what they see in the mirror, and anyone who watches it and feels offended, deserves to be so, and should maybe spend some time reflecting on why. Having read and watched Derren's work, I personally believe he has better sensibilities, than for this to be his soul intention. Everyone has a right to be ridiculous, but not at anyone elses expense. Truth has many colours, and no statement in itself is completely true. Peace all. |
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joeyjojo Regular user uruguay 126 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 07:39, salsa_dancer wrote: Your answers make me smile. So if Bush and Blair come to you and say that there is secret evidence that country 'x' needs to be attacked are you telling me that you will not take into account, in deciding whether or not to support the decision, previous experience? According to your view (which I too held many years ago, in my teens) all probabilities are statistically 1 in 2 since every question can be answered with a yes or no (thus, either the sun will or won't rise tomorrow). Of course, statisticians are necessary and valued because the world doesn't work this way. In deciding whether or not the sun will rise, they look at all previous comparable events and that affects the probabilities. Needless to say, it is 99.9 per cent certain that the sun will rise tomorrow, not 50 per cent. So an intelligent approach to predictions (which, in guessing what Mr. Brown will do, is what we are engaging in here) does in fact draw on what we know about the actors and the stage. It has nothing to do with Christian forgiveness or guilty until proven innocent or those other sweet ideas. Of course, we do not yet KNOW what exactly what DB will come up with but we have a good idea about some aspects of it (eg., it would be reasonable to expect him to have a goatee, to be wearing clothes, to speak in English, etc. We don't KNOW it yet, and keeping an open mind perhaps we should wonder if he will be nude, speaking Estonian, and the rest of it). |
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salsa_dancer Inner circle 1935 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 09:02, joeyjojo wrote: Haha! Of course I understand that statistically speaking the chances of this show being controversial is very high. Unlike the other decision that you put forward in your analogy I am able to wait and see the outcome before sending in the troops to take out Mr Brown. With regard to the forgiveness angle, I am able to forgive even the world leaders for their mistakes, it is after all down to the voting public to put them into these positions of power, which one might argue is 'our' mistake. Of course I forgive the public too |
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DanielLove Loyal user UK 265 Posts |
On his original channel 4 website the links to "learn more" were body language and NLP sites - Also if you watch the car salesman act in the first series whilst NLP isn't directly mentioned it is very heavily implied. Also the library scene he clearly states he is using something similar to Photo reading. It's all sort of irrelivant isn't it? we all know that this stuff is just part of his act - the guy is allowed to develop and grow in his style isn't he?
As for him being arrogant - Having met him I would in some respects agree but no more (in fact probably far less) than I or many would be in his situation. They guy deserves a level of self confidence and pride - and if he comes across arrogant so what? The guys entire career is based arround secrecy so I think that a lot of his behaviour is misjudged by the fact that he has to be pretty *** closed with everyone who is outside of his network. Anyway we are all bloody arrogant anyhow, it's part of human nature - but then again we'd all go mad if we didn't have a degree of it. Let's just watch the show aznd enjoy it for what it is, entertainment that will hopefully provoke some interesting thoughts and conversation - but most importantly entertainment. |
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David Numen Inner circle 2071 Posts |
PsychoMagi - I honestly can't recall what he claimed and didn't claim but his most recent series (post roullette) very conspicuously identified him as very much a magician. Anyway, people on THIS board and other boards totally non-magic related were writing about how he used influence, persuasion and NLP to accomplish the roulette gig - so regardless of what he SPECIFICALLY claimed the public perception (I am talking about a forum for TV viewers NOT a magic forum) is that he uses such things.
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joeyjojo Regular user uruguay 126 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 09:21, DanielLove wrote: Interesting; I've never met DB but reading his books he comes across as arrogant and condescending. His published attitudes to women, for instance, reflect on this. As for all of us being 'bloody arrogant anyhow', I can only implore you to speak for yourself. It is not 'human nature' at all (where do you get this from?). You'd be wise to read Desmond Morris's "The Human Zoo" or "The Moral Animal" by S. Wright. They're not magic/mentalism related but they will disabuse you of your ideas concerning what is and is not 'human nature' (arrogance is not, by the way). |
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mr twain New user 30 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 09:49, joeyjojo wrote: I think you're projecting erroneous personality traits onto Derren's rather biting, British sense of humour, fascination with language, performance persona and tendency towards self-parody. His "published attitudes to women", for example, are a joke you simply failed to get. There's a current trend in British humour (Chris Morris, TV Go Home, B3TA, Alan Partridge) that plays with controversial tropes and taboos in order to a) defuse the power of censorship and b) make us reflect on our own subconscious prejudices and by extension the cultural formation of normative belief systems. Derren's writing is full of Chris Morrisesque word-play and taboo breaking, so it's pretty safe to say that he's an aficianado of his work. Besides, I think of arrogance as a form of haughty confidence without foundation. I think DB has every reason to be confident in his chosen field of artistry. |
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Winnes Elite user 473 Posts |
Hey, if I could get a bunch of folks to believe I'm the second coming with my NLPing, I'd be arrogant too.
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David Numen Inner circle 2071 Posts |
What EVERY single mentalist and magical performer needs to be aware of is that the reason why magic is kind of looked down on by so many people is that magicians are seen as smart-ass arrogant people. The thing is - magic and mentalism is really showing off and nobody likes a show-off so for me you've got to hide the clever-clever attitude if you want to be liked. Why so many magicians and mentalists fail to see or understand this is beyond me.
What do you think is the more instantly likeable presentation? Hey, look what I have learnt to do - you could do it too if you were as clever as me or Hey, let's try this, I don't know if it works or how it works exactly but it might be fun, As to Derren's writing, it is entertaining but he tries to hard to prove how clever he is. IMHO Regards, David. |
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salsa_dancer Inner circle 1935 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 10:18, bartlewizard wrote: Derren Brown is very well liked, I have yet to meet a lay person that doesn't like him, they all find him fascinating and interesting. How odd for an arrogant, jumped up little Englishman. What do you think is the more instantly likeable presentation? Quote:
Hey, look what I have learnt to do - you could do it too if you were as clever as me They are both intrinsically the same thing. Both say look what I can do that you can't. Quote:
As to Derren's writing, it is entertaining but he tries to hard to prove how clever he is. IMHO Ridiculous. Derren has a natural, flowing writing style that is fun and easy to read. I think you may find that is literary skills probably would not stand up to the scrutiny of academics and professional writers. However, his raw talent is clearly visible, and the fact that you think he is trying to prove how clever he is just goes to show that he is, in fact, very clever. We cannot condemn a man for his intelligence any more than we can for his stupidity. |
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papillion New user North Wales 9 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 09:49, joeyjojo wrote: I assume you are referring to Pure effect and Absolute Magic? Okay, so he does make a few digs at female magicians, but they were jokes. I can just see Derren sat at his computer laughing at this thread. Those of you who hate the idea of the show are merely bumping this thread up so that even more people read it and will therefore want to watch the show! Can’t you see that you are just giving him free publicity? |
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David Numen Inner circle 2071 Posts |
Salsa - you are beginning to remind me of the Monty Python sketch "Can I have an argument please?"
"Derren Brown is very well liked," A matter of opinion and experience. Most people I mention him to can't even remember his name - he's just that guy that did the seance or whatever. As to being liked, it doens't come in to it in any conversations I've had. He's seen as a scary dude - I think the general public perception of him is along the lines of Paul McKenna - very clever and talented at what they do but a tad creepy...I might be wrong but then I am in a couple of boards that have nothing to do with magic and that's the gist I get. "They are both intrinsically the same thing. Both say look what I can do that you can't." You seriously need to think things through. One says very clearly "Look what I can do that you can't". The other says "Look what happens around me - I cant explain it". Then there's always the mre palatable Geller gambit of pinning the abilities on to your audience. "Ridiculous." I am starting to get the impression that you consider any opinion other than your own to be ridiculous. I clearly stated that this was my opinion and it's one I am entitled to whether you like it or not. It's not only my opinion but that of just about all my friends (in mentalism) that I have discussed the matter with. There's a discourse about his senile Granny in Absolute Magic that serves no practical purpose and seems to be there - like so many other parts of the book - to demonstrate that you are dealing with a clever fellow and that is VERY distracting. There is a world of difference betwen trying to be clever and actually being clever. Derren IS a very clever guy but he seems to enjoy making sure we know this. |
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salsa_dancer Inner circle 1935 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 11:17, bartlewizard wrote: The terms pot, kettle and black spring to mind. Quote:
"Derren Brown is very well liked," This is the point I am trying to make - it is all subjective, yet you are insisting that your viewpoint is right and everyone elses is wrong. The thing you accuse me of later in this post. You were the one saying it was 'impossible for Derren to broach this subject without mocking and insulting and that in your view he is arrogant. It is very easy to attack someone who isn't around to defend themselves. Quote:
You seriously need to think things through. One says very clearly "Look what I can do that you can't". The other says "Look what happens around me - I cant explain it". Then there's always the mre palatable Geller gambit of pinning the abilities on to your audience. Good grief. You are now saying it is ok to say 'look what goes on around me - I can't explain it' so you advocate lying to people over arrogant explanation? Please clarify how one is better than the other. Quote:
I am starting to get the impression that you consider any opinion other than your own to be ridiculous. I clearly stated that this was my opinion and it's one I am entitled to whether you like it or not. It's not only my opinion but that of just about all my friends (in mentalism) that I have discussed the matter with. Yet I have had the opposite. It begs the question of who is right. Quote:
There's a discourse about his senile Granny in Absolute Magic that serves no practical purpose and seems to be there - like so many other parts of the book - to demonstrate that you are dealing with a clever fellow and that is VERY distracting. There is a world of difference betwen trying to be clever and actually being clever. Derren IS a very clever guy but he seems to enjoy making sure we know this. Whereas I found it all highly entertaining and at times it caused outward bursts of laughter. It is only distracting if you are not understanding it, I am sure there is a ladybird version out there somewhere. Your whole post highlights the point I have painfully been trying to make. We each have our own opinions, I am happy to accept others opinions, except when they refuse point blank to accept that there may be an alternative. Being hugely opinionated puts you in the same position as arrogance, the arrogance that you are right and others are wrong. I am not stating I am right, I just want clarification that your views have merit. |
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mr twain New user 30 Posts |
Perhaps the difference here is cultural. I'm not sure you'd ever see someone from the UK (with half a brain cell) complaining that a performer was trying to appear "too clever" - especially when they are clever! We'd just smile and enjoy it for what it is.
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David Numen Inner circle 2071 Posts |
"This is the point I am trying to make - it is all subjective, yet you are insisting that your viewpoint is right and everyone elses is wrong."
Most anything I say is clearly my opinion and I fail to see where I sam saying everybody else is wrong. You just seem absolutely desperate to defend even the slightest criticism of Derren and unwilling to accept the possibility that some of it might be accurate. "Good grief. You are now saying it is ok to say 'look what goes on around me - I can't explain it' so you advocate lying to people over arrogant explanation? Please clarify how one is better than the other." Where is that statement a lie? There are lots of things that go on around me that I can't explain - this computer, the light in my room - I know that they work but ain't terribly clear on how they do work. You see, it's a clever linguistic deception that gets you off the hook and I will advocate that approcah EVERY time because I know many people who HATE magic and I know WHY they hate magic - because they hate being fooled! It is entirely one thing to fool a person, it is another thing to rub their nose in it. "Yet I have had the opposite. It begs the question of who is right." There isn't a right or a wrong but I suspect my experience is wider than yours in terms of getting opinions on mentalists. Mind you, I say that because I am biased. "Whereas I found it all highly entertaining and at times it caused outward bursts of laughter." And I found those sections puerile. Nothing to do with not understanding it. I understood it fully. "You were the one saying it was 'impossible for Derren to broach this subject without mocking and insulting" My exact meaning - as I pointed out SEVERAL times - was that the very act of duping someone over their faith and then revealing that you duped them involves, at it's heart, a degree of mockery. Only an unfeeling, insensitive cretin would fail to see that point and it is not tied into my opinion of Derren coming across as arrogant. "I am happy to accept others opinions, except when they refuse point blank to accept that there may be an alternative. " A large piece of BS Salsa - nearly every response I have made on this and previously deleted threads has been to address an alternative viewpoint which you consistently shouted down until you finally "got" it and started to change the argument by calling me up about having worked as a psychic reader - something that is irrelevant, has nothing to do with you or the topic and which you clearly know absolutely nothing about. "Being hugely opinionated puts you in the same position as arrogance, the arrogance that you are right and others are wrong." No, being hugely opinionated puts you in the position of being hugely opinionated - my opinions are just that. It seems to be you that is so desperate to dispute them at every turn lest your beloved Derren gets criticised. and that in your view he is arrogant. It is very easy to attack someone who isn't around to defend themselves." The |
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salsa_dancer Inner circle 1935 Posts |
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On 2005-01-03 11:46, mr twain wrote: Perhaps, but then I think some people do take themselves far too seriously so feel the need to jump up and down and shout about it. |
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