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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
HAMIL, GIVE IT A REST -
There's not much general "gospel magic bashing" going on here. There's a good amount of honest discussion of what makes GOOD gospel magic and what makes BAD gospel magic. And that's not only not forbidden, it's essential. There are good preachers and bad, good witnessers and those who represent God poorly. We get into "dangerous waters" when we try to tell someone they're making the message look stupid, or making the faith look bad ... whenever that happens, you always get some "my interpretation of the Word's better than yours," but still the discussion is necessary. |
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Hamil New user Bay Area California 94 Posts |
Rossmacrae, thank you for your input. However, to your own words:
Quote: I would say that any bashing is wrong in this forum. And, is what my responses was to when I said: There's not much general "gospel magic bashing" going on here. Quote:
too many come to this forum and judge without a personal knowledge of the Living Christ With that said, the other point I was trying to make is that in all levels of the “Arts” there will be the novice who have elevated themselves and their skills prematurely and not just the Christian Illusionist or Magician, and that should be, in some way, eluded to in the process of critiquing the Gospel Illusionist or Magician while in this forum of : “The Good News”. In recognizing the title of this forum “The Good News”, the need for honest critique is greatly appreciated and there is much in this thread. I do believe and think it would helpful and would be appropriate of posters to in some way announce from what side of the fence they stand. Such as, I’m not a Christian and this is what I’ve seen or vice versa. Honest critique to the Gospel Illusionist from believers and non-believers can be a great learning tool and the first part of it’s honesty should be a some sort of claim to the understanding of what their critiquing. The quote is true that “people will never care about how much someone knows until they know how much someone cares”. And, in this cyber world forum that titles itself as “The Good News”, that care, critique or what ever you want to call it, I believe, can only be demonstrated and shown by a clear and concise admission of their position in Christ which is what the “Good News” aka “The Gospel” is about before the "honest"critique begins. I do apologize for my policeman type sensitivity to this delicate subject and ask for forgiveness to those whose feathers I’ve rustled But, I do that apologize to those who: Quote: and do not make their position clearly known before beginning their critique.
come to this forum and judge without a personal knowledge of the Living Christ And lastly, as a friendly reminder, please note that in the rules of this forum it say’s: Quote:
If gospel magic is not your thing, the Café provides plenty of other categories to choose from, thank you. If I am guilty of anything, it would be a gross misunderstanding of what the Café rules state for this category “if Gospel Magic is not your thing” which to me suggests to mean “If your not a Gospel Magician” the Café provides plenty of other categories to choose from, thank you. And for that my quilt stands upon me. p.s. And please do not disregard all that I have said in the past within this thread and jump to the conclusion that I’ve said that non Gospel Magicians should not be allowed to post here. I have not said that, I’ve only tried to make the point that if you are not in the field of presenting the “Gospel” using illusions as your medium, please be clear about that at the onset of your post. |
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BLSmagic New user 79 Posts |
Ok here is my 2 cents. I am a member of the FCM (Fellowship of Christian Magicians) and I do some gospel magic. However, I do my gospel magic in my church shows and that's about it unless it is requested. I don't want to offend anybody with anything at any point in any of my shows. Gospel magic can offend people but being clean can't. I have a family show and even when I do adult shows, I just keep it clean. I doubt that people will come up to me and say, "I enjoyed your show but I was a little offended because you didn't use any off color material." So to sum it all up, I have no problem with gospel magic in a church or when it is requested. Other than that, I keep it clean and as far as I know, everyone is happy. Just my 2 cents worth.
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-02-13 12:13, Hamil wrote: Yes, competency is another subject altogether yet oft mixed in these threads to bolster a position.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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Midnight333 Veteran user 353 Posts |
The seemingly general propensity for most christians, Baptists in general, to shove their "ideas" about what God is and what everybody else who doesn't agree with their doctrine is down the throats of anyone they can, has made this man renounce all christianity. There should be no sneak attack preaching, do the Fllling show, leave God out of it and preach in church. Besides, aren't you contradicting your doctrine by emulating that which thou shalt not suffer? A witch? Anyway my two sense.
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
Uh, I think they are preaching in church. Gospel magic has nothing to do with your experiences with religion. This forum is not about religious discussion. Magic is not witchcraft, only in the movies. Magic is an art. Witchcraft is a religion. Witches don't do magic effects.
Gospel magic, like Bizarre, is a story-telling magic, a magic that can potray something other than just eye-candy. It can leave a message! That's pretty cool stuff regardless of whether you agree with the message. At a minimum, you can appreciate the art behind it. That post was a bit not appropriate.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Midnight333 -
There might have been another way to say what you wanted to say, without the bashing. I gather that you have had a negative experience with Christianity in the past. I suggest that you read the guidelines pinned at the top of the "good news" section, before you post in this area. Not that you aren't welcome. Just that your post is inappropriate (this is not the area to bash Christianity or gospel magic). Thanks. - Donald P.S. I have a question for the Café staff who moderate this area. Was this thread started in this area? Just curious. It seems to invite controversy and posts that are against the pinned suggested guidelines, because no guidelines were given on the thread as to how much could be said for an opposing view.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Neale Bacon Inner circle Burnaby BC Canada 1775 Posts |
Here's my bit for what it's worth. I have been doing gospel magic for years in addition to birthdays and other events.
When I am asked to do gospel magic, the show is made very clear as to what it is. It is also usually in a church setting such as a camp or crusade. People coming to such an event are not shocked to see the gospel presented. My show is a combination of magic and ventriloquism, and I see those as illustration in the same way Jesus taught in parables or stories. No one ever gets the idea I do miracles. I think it is arrogant and presumptuous to do a gospel magic show in a secular setting with no "warning". Everyone keeps mentioning Andre Kole. Every time I have seen him, he tells the audience he is going to do a gospel presentation and if they don't want to see it, they allow time for them to leave. Why do people stay? Because the magic is top notch, so they want to see more and hear what he has to say. I think gospel magic, as long as it is done well, as everything we do should be done at our best "as unto the Lord", is a wonderful way to communicate the message of good news in a way that many people have not seen. One small illustration to close..I used to do chapel service at a treatment center once a month, using magic and vent to share the gospel. I have met some of these same men years later on the street, and not only do they remember the magic or the jokes, but the can tell me the lesson being taught, and isn't that the whole point?
Neale Bacon and his Crazy Critters
Burnaby BC Canada's Favourite Family Ventriloquist www.baconandfriends.com |
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thesecretllama New user Dayton, Oh 41 Posts |
I love that this topic comes up so often. I am edified by it. I really helps me to think more deeply about what it means to be a magician. We like to apply all kinds of descriptive words to things, people, places, etc. It makes it easier for us to evaluate (judge?) the things around us. "Christian music," "Christian magician," "magic Café," we could go on all day. This also makes it easier to set up binary oppositions: Christian vs. secular, virtual vs. actual, etc. Once we have a binary opposition in place we can see how one marginalizes the other (and it is reciprocating). Christian's tend to marginalize the secular (although, we wouldn't admit it or would file it else where) just as the secular tends to marginalize the Christian (many time pejorative descriptions are applied to Christians true or untrue such as: "Christian Right," "Mindless sheep," etc.)
I am not advocating that we do away with descriptive words, I do think it is good for us to see what we do to one another. As for this thread, I have come to the understanding that I do not like the phrase "Christian magician." This is a personal belief, for what it's worth. I am, in fact, a follower of Christ, seeking His Kingdom and righteousness, thus I am a Christian on the journey. I am a pastor (would that make me a Christian pastor?) who is formally educated in theology and philosophy and experiencially educated in the ministry. I am currently enrolled in an MA Theology program at an acredited university. (I say this for some of you who need to know this and not for those who don't.) I am also a magician. A not very good magician, but a magician nonetheless. It is because of Majiloon's and other's thoughtfullness that I have learned to think differently about the Gospel's use for a magician. I agree that magic should be entertainment. However, I believe entertainment is taken too lightly. This is a gift and should be offered and received as such, that is to say withouth reciprocity. I don't believe the Gospel needs anything to give it legitimacy, as someone (can't remember who) stated in a post. Our Christ stands alone as truth. However, because each of us learn differently (see Gardner's Multiple Intelligences) we do need different ways of understanding the truth of the Gospel. For my congregation all of whom are under that age of 13, this is especially apt. As far as using magic evangelistically, I take the more AndreKolian approach. Entertain and give a personal testimony afterward. This has taken me a while to work through. So, thank you Majiloon, you were a big help in this. (Even though sometimes you do love the sarcasm and biting remarks . . . oh, go on, admit it . . . I thought so!) Evan Abla |
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
I don't think it's an either/or proposition, I think its more of a spectrum. You don't have to give a full-blown Gospel (as some indicated would be presumptuous without warning and I agree) or straight magic. You can design presentations with allegory and metaphor or with a tale well-told that illustrates a value (honesty or love for our neighbor, for example) or warns of a negative trait (selfishness or arrogance, for example). They can be kind of food for thought - consider this - type of pieces. These place a message in magic that is commercially saleable anywhere.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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thesecretllama New user Dayton, Oh 41 Posts |
Right on Clifford! This would be the appropriate balance. The binary oppositions that are confronted by the face of Christ tend to fall apart. What I wanted to point out with the talk of binary oppositions is merely what happens naturally in criticism. So, here, here!
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Waters Inner circle 2508 Posts |
I am a believer. I too am formally trained (i.e. attended seminary, although I am not a pastor). I think that it is not necessary to "tie" a gospel presentation to your show for it to honor God. God is honored by you doing the best magic that you can. Be faithful with the gifts and talents that you have. It is Okay for a christian to just perform for the "art" and "joy" of performing (magic). I really got tired of many well-meant fellow believers who think that the only value comes from the message that you attach. God is the creator, creativity is a gift from Him... use it well. When the opportunity arises to share your faith, do it. The most important thing is that you have been gracious, and loving. Please do not hear me say that I do not think that you should do "gospel magic", I just believe that we should love others and strive to perfect the "art" of magic as much as possible, I think this is a better route than "tricking" (pun intended) people into gospel presentation. Earn the right to share your faith with kindness and genuine concern.
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drkptrs1975 Elite user North Eastern PA 452 Posts |
Do not worry, God knows your heart. The art of Illusions is a very effective way of spreading a message, especially the Gospel. Be faithful first, then successful.
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MagicFingers Loyal user Orlando, FL 230 Posts |
I am a Christian illusionist. That is to say, I am an illusionist who happens to be a Christian. I have never really found any "Gospel" magic that was both great ministry and great magic. I have found that trying to mix evangelism and magic dilutes the essence of both.
So I perform my illusions, trying to do the best in all I do and treat all those with whom I work with respect and courtesy. I live the way Christ would have me live and hope that I can witness through the way I live my life. In the same way, if someone asks me about my faith, I don't take out a pack of cards! Julian
Julian Bond
Musician / Magician |
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SoundWave New user 82 Posts |
I am a Christian and a magician. This is a dangerous notion to some and not so to others. I happen to be Christian and find the latter word of magic to be taken lightly. Ministry and magic can be effective if used carefully. I do not combine or mix up my Faith with illusions or magic. To quote Julian "I have found that trying to mix evangelism and magic dilutes the essence of both." My sediments exactly.
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-09-05 11:37, SoundWave wrote: I hope you meant "sentiments!" Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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