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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Turnover move Okito VS Buddha (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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algebraic
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I'm curious as to which of these two boxes has a better/easier design to do the basic turnover move. Is one easier than the other or is it just a matter of personal taste to the design of the box?
billfromoregon
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I find the buddha box to be easier, because of the curved sides. The box also has a thick rim, which allows you to balance a coin on the edge for a rim steal. Overall, I prefer the buddha boxes, and they are readily available in boston, slot and magnetic versions. Many will prefer the older style, so it really is a matter of personal preference, as either will work for almost any routine you use.
sethb
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My own opinion is that the Buddha boxes are slightly easier to use, although I'm not exactly sure why that's so. The rounded sides don't actually help in doing the move, but it just seems that the shape makes it easier, with no 90-degree edges to catch on hands or fingers. Perhaps the Buddha boxes are also weighted differently than the Johnson boxes. They're the only two brands of Okito boxes that I've had experience with.

I will say that the Buddha boxes offer a little more variety than the Johnsons (I don't think Johnson makes a slot box, for example). You can also get a separate shimmed lid that will fit any of the Buddha boxes (it's not in the ChazPro website catalog, you have to ask for it) that provides for some great additional possibilities. I believe the workmanship of the boxes is about equal, with Johnson possibly having a slight edge in that department. My only criticisms of the Buddha boxes are that the lids could be a little heavier and have a slightly bigger side flange, and that the "quarter" size box is really designed for European coinage (Euros), not American quarters. But the Buddha boxes are certainly well made and nicely finished; they may even be less likely to dent if dropped, due to the thicker curved walls.

So having worked with both the Johnson and Buddha boxes, I prefer the Buddha boxes, for the reasons I've stated. But either would stand you in good stead for many years. While you're at it, also pick up David Roth's Okito Box DVD, which is Volume 2 of his "Ultimate Coin Magic" set, see http://themagicwarehouse.com/vidco2.html#dv9604 You'll have enough moves and material to keep you busy for a long time! SETH
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David Nelson
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Specifically for the basic turnover move, the easiest style I've ever come across is the original okito style. Here's a cross section http://www.jimzeemagic.com/coinboxes/okito.jpg. The large rim around the middle makes the turnover easier than any other box I've worked with. Both Jim Zee and Viking make boxes in this style.

Since I rarely use the turnover anymore I've moved to Jim Zee's standard style because they come in a size to fit my Morgan dollars and I really like the look and feel of the boxes.

Before I decided to migrate my okito tricks to dollars to match the rest of my coin work I used vikings okito set ( pictured here http://www.vikingmagic.com/?html=full&key=6 ) and was extremely happy with it specifically because the turnover is so easy with a box of this style.

Dave
Mike Wild
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I like the "standard" version of the box myself (standard meaning today's standard, like the Johnson boxes, not the original style). The original design is very good for doing the moves, but for me, it's too complex looking. It looks like something's up with it, where as the basic round box design looks completely "harmless", plain, and unassuming.

As for basic turnovers... any style box will work well for that. It's a matter of individual preference and what your used to.

Mike
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sethb
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Mike, now you have my curiosity aroused. What do you mean by "original style" Okito box? I always thought the basic design of the box remained about the same over the years.

The only comparison I have is an Okito Box that I bought from Tannen's about 35 years ago. It's a bit more delicate-looking than the present brass boxes, probably because it's highly polished and lacquered. It also has a small hole in the center of the lid for sticking a pin or small nail through -- I'm not sure why. The corners are very slightly rounded, and it also seems to be a bit thinner and lighter than today's boxes. But it's basically the same box and certainly operates in exactly the same way.

So as an Okito box aficionado, I'd like to hear more about these "original" Okito boxes. What's up? SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC
Mike Wild
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Check out the link that Dave included in his post for the Viking box set, and compare to the picture of the Porper box below:

Image


The original design has a bulging center, whereas the "new standard style" is a cylinder with a top.

Mike
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Frank Tougas
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Sethb,

The box you described is pretty much what the Okito box was meant to be. The small hole was added later and the trick it is used for is in the book Okito Box Routines by Mohamed Bey. I have a similar one myself, just a plain straight sided brass box, not fancy in any way and I enjoy it mucho.

Several turnover moves are taught in the book, and I have one I've worked on myself that I would bet money has been invented before.

The box is similar to the one pictured above except the edges are rounded and there is that hole through the box to accomodate a "hat pin".
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
sethb
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Mike, I took a look at the Viking Okito boxes you mentioned. I could be wrong, but I believe that they are not the "original" design of Okito box. I'm pretty sure the original Okito box, as invented by Okito (Theo. Bamberg) in the early 1900's, was based upon a pillbox, with straight sides (I also believe there is a picture of it somewhere in Bobo, not sure of the page).

I think the Viking design is an afterthought, much as the Buddha Boxes are, with the curved sides. Even Viking says their boxes are an "art-deco" design.

Not that it really matters, the various Okito boxes all operate the same way and people should perform with whatever strikes their fancy and whatever works for them. But I'm just curious as to the actual history of the design. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC
Mike Wild
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The illustration in Bobo's:
Image


Shows yet another different style than I thought it would. I guess the original pill box dimensions and shape are in dispute Smile

As you said, it doesn't matter... whatever people prefer is the right box for them.

Mike
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sethb
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You're right, the Bobo picture also looks different from what I remembered; it's a little more ornate than the "plain-vanilla" boxes we see today. By the way, I think the other Okito box shown in the upper right-hand corner of your Bobo picture is what's called a "German" coin box, and has no top. I suppose it was a forerunner of the Boston box, but again I'm not sure.

Of course, a good argument can be made that the simpler and plainer the box, the less it looks like a magic prop or is likely to attract suspicion (to the extent that a small brass box holding four half dollars and obviously good for nothing else is unlikely to attract suspicion).

Mike, thanks for taking the time to scan and post these pictures. I guess the "original" Okito box design may be yet another magic fact lost in the mists of time! SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC
Mike Wild
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I didn't have to scan them Seth... I picked up Bobo's in e-book format a long while back. It's on my PDA for quick references when I'm out and about. The Porper picture was one that I had on my website for a review that I did some time ago. (picture used with permission of owner of course)

Personally... I use the Dragon style Okito box, the Buddha slot box, and the BO set in performances. I like to mix and mismatch the boxes. Most magicians like to have a matching set, but I like the different looks, and it helps to create storylines and premises when I use more than one box at the same time.

Mike
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David Nelson
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One of the links I included in my earlier post doesn't seem to show up but it's a good picture of a cross section of the box.

Here's a link to the price page http://www.jimzeemagic.com/coinboxes/prices.html and in the lower left corner you'll find the link to the picture I was trying to post earlier.

Jim Zee calls it the "Classic Box(original okito style)".

Jim's been doing coin boxes for a while. Also, Viking owns the rights to much of the original Okito line, having purchased it from the previous manufacturer. I took those two pieces of information and figured that if Viking was making that style and Jim Zee called it the original okito style then it was exactly that, the original style created by Okito after messing about with a pill box.

I have no additional evidence to support my theory but those two pieces of evidence are strong enough for me to believe it's the first design manufactured by Okito.

Dave
sethb
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Mike, this is slightly off topic, but I have a question about your Dragon box.

Just wondered how it holds up compared with the standard brass Okito boxes (I believe the Dragon Box is made of pewter). I've found that although the brass Okito boxes are pretty durable, the brass is a bit soft compared to the half dollars that are used with the box. So the box does get a bit scratched and scuffed up in use, particularly if you're doing rim steals or bottom loads. How does the pewter hold up in this department?

I should note that I'm never opposed to a prop showing some use. When you pull out some bright, shiny new widget, it's bound to attract more suspicion than some well-worn prop. But on the other hand, I don't want to use stuff that looks like I bought it at a garage sale! SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC
ncsteve
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I like a plain looking brass box. I tell people I found it at the flea market & bought it (for 3 bucks) because it was a good thing to carry my half dollars in. The guy said he thought it was old but had no idea what it was made for (& of course neither do I;-). I've never had anyone question that story but have had a few try to figure out what it was made for.
Steve
Rob Johnston
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I do not like the feel of a Buddah box. It just doesn't help me out in any way. I prefer the classic style, easier to work with in my opinion.
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Mike Wild
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Seth - I've found the Dragon box to be surprisingly durable! I had reservations about it at first, pewter, in my experience, bends, breaks, etc. (we've all owned at least of those cheap necklaces with a pewter arrowhead or other such artifact, yes?). But the dragon box has held up beautifully under performance stress for about 2-3 years now, with no sign of problems (Don't drop it on a hard floor though!) The design on the lid is also beautiful, and goes with my "SunDragon Magic" motif nicely.

I own 2 of them (I usually buy a second for items that I use a lot, just in case), and I'd recommend them very highly.

Mike
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sethb
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Thanks, Mike, for the Dragon Box info, and the advice not to drop it. That probably applies to any Okito Box, which is pretty easily dented and put out of commission by a visit to a tile or hard floor.

I guess one lesson to be learned from all of these comments is that, especially in coin magic where everyone's hands are different, your own mileage may vary. So you need to get out to your local magic shop, try out the various Okito boxes and see what works best for you. If that's not an option, you can still pick up three or four different varieties cheaply enough on the Internet, so that if one or two of them end up in the bottom drawer of your dresser, it's not the end of the world. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC
Gipstein
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I see here that somone has the Bobo coin book on their PDA. I would like to know WHERE I might find that. I have a Sony Clie that uses the Palm software (not the Microsoft Pocket system). Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Todd
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Mike Wild
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Todd,

Lybrary.com

You'll find quite a few great books in digital format there.

Best,

Mike
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"Question Reality... Create Illusion"
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