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Scott O. Inner circle Midwest 1143 Posts |
How many times have you looked at a prop and said, I could build that myself for 1/10th the cost? I’ve done that many times. But usually about half way into the project, I realize why the cost is seemingly so high.
Case in point. A simple crystal casket. $35 retail. Well I was able to buy the pieces of plexiglass cut to my specs for only $5. So I thought this thing could be built for about $10 tops. -- Then I tried to track down the reflective tape. I finally found a sign company that sold me a scrap sheet of this material from which I had to cut strips. Cost $1 and about half a dozen phone calls and as many stops at stores. Ok $6 invested. Not bad. Now for the metal you-know-what. Well I wanted it buffed with a mirror finish. That’s where the cost came in. I made calls all over. One shop finally said, "Yeah, we can do that for you. It’ll be . . .$50" Whoa!! "No you must be mistaken. It’s just a 5" square of metal!" So, I didn’t purchase it there. I finally had to go to one metal fab shop and purchase a piece of metal cut to spec. for $5, and then I took it to another fab shop to have it buffed for $15. Well, I have a really nice crystal casket now. And the total cash cost was only $26. But then I have to add in the hours of phone calls, running from store to store to metal shop to metal shop, and assembly. -- I should have just bought the thing Anyone else learn this lesson? Scott O. _________________ Levitating somewhere over Wisconsin
Do not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time you will reap a harvest, if you do not give up. Galatians 6:9
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Mr. Ed Veteran user California 337 Posts |
I agree with you that in most cases it is easier and all around cheaper to just buy the product. As an engineer I am lucky enough to have inside tracks on materials and craftpersons,(if I can't do it myself) but find the product is marginally less expensive and never seems to be of the same quality. ( i.e. Beads of Prussia) I will say though that I am dead set against remaking marketed tricks that others have been clever enough to create and share with the magic community, that is just plain old theft. ( I.E. D'lite)
He who laughs, lasts.
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Magicduck Elite user Washington State 484 Posts |
I have been building my own magic form many years. I build primarily of wood, metal, plastic and fabric. I find that I can build considerably cheaper in almost all cases. The exception would be if I have to hire a part of the job done--like the time I needed a perfect round hole in the center of a mirror.
Another point: there are hundreds, or even thousands, of great effects that are not being produced today. Take a look at the Eric Lewis Trilogy, The Berg Book, the Harbin books or Jack Hughes Trilogy and you will see what I mean. I build from old books primarily, as a result I have some cool effects that no one else is doing today. When some masked fool is on the TV exposing, he never exposes anything I do...and that is a relief. By making my own magic I also find that I learn better how to use the principals and better understand magic design. And, since I am pretty particular, I find that the quality of my props is excellent and they last better than many commercial magic items. I suggest you give it a try. Some people love it and do a good job. Others hate it and are not confident. You will find out yourself pretty fast. quack |
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donaldlaporte New user new hampshire 46 Posts |
Well, the only thing I’ve built instead of buying, I was looking at the close up table that is sold by L&L publishing and saw the price and went holy s***, then I went and saw a friend who has one, and the thing is perfect what craftmanship the thing is a work of art.
I can’t tell you how nice this table is unless you’ve seen one, anyway, I still couldn’t afford one, and my friend said that it was so nice he was nervous about bringing it out in public and using it. Well, I still needed one, so I went and saw a guy who has a woodworking factory about having the pieces cut that I needed and the legs turned, well they already had legs stockpiled and the table top took them five minutes to cut, they put the sides on and the place for the removable legs, price 30 dollars. Then I went to a craft store and bought what they call car head liner, stain, then some nice half round, four nice brass corner grommets, put the thing together, my time maybe two hours, my final cost 50 dollars. And, it’s perfect, light, easy to move, comes apart in two minutes and for that price, I’m not worried about taking it out to perform with it. So, in my mind this was a great alternative to spending a lot of money. don |
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Bengi Veteran user Georgia 309 Posts |
I agree that it is sometimes cheaper to buy than to build it yourself. But the feeling of seeing something you have built yourself (that works) is priceless!!
Bengi |
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Scott O. Inner circle Midwest 1143 Posts |
Let me clarify a little. First, I agree with MagicMrEd that making a copy of something that has been created and marketed by an individual should not be copied just because you can build your own.
However as MagicDuck has done, there are many effects out there that are not being marketed, or at least not exclusively (like the crystal casket) that one can build. Second, regardless of what I said earlier, I will still build some of my own props. Though now I have a better idea what it takes to build some of these effects, and in some cases I have opted to just purchase the apparatus. One noteworthy success in the build-your-own department is Martin Lewis' Cardigraphic. He explains on a video how to construct one. This I did--with great success. Plus, it WAS cheaper than buying the ready-made prop. So sometimes it pays . . . and sometimes it's just not worth it. Cheers, Scott
Do not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time you will reap a harvest, if you do not give up. Galatians 6:9
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deckland New user 14 Posts |
For many years now I have been building all my props and effects that I use in my shows.
There are many companies that sell rip off gear. There is a company that sells wholesale, it’s an Indian company. You can get loads of things from them like sliding die boxes to full size head choppers. I am able to get these at the wholesale prices. I would not say they are well made but for the price I get them for, it’s all right. I’ve seen the same prop ( from this company) being sold elsewhere for double. That’s where the price is not worth it. If you are going to build something that is being sold, change the look and design. This way you will have a good prop that looks different from the ones being sold, also, if you are going to make something, make sure you are gifted to be able to build it. There are some things I would not try to make. You will end up paying more in wood etc. than it would be to build it yourself and of course the one you can buy will be a lot better. Take time making something, it pays off in the end. |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
The real issue in building or to buy is threefold.
1. The proper tools to do a proper job cost about as much as one Illusion. One needs: table saw, router, drills, sanders, hand tools, the little items, glue, screws, drill bits, clamps, etc. for wood work, Metal work is another issue.(See any Illusion shop photo. It has a full size workshop.) 2. Anyone who has worked in a wood shop knows how easy it is to mess up cutting a piece of wood, hence, Osborne’s tip to make a miniture model first. Cutting splintering, sanding, smoothing, rounding, mitering, glueing, etc. are all skills. Unless you have a talent for this, mechanically inclined as they say, a piece of work can end up costing more than if you bought it from the Dealer. 3. The finished product makes or breaks all the hard work. Unless you can duplicate the finish techniques of the professionals, your work will look homemade, hence, your act can be tarnished by sloppy props. This is a skill in itself. Recomendations are to go to an auto painting shop and have them spray paint it. This is another issue for complete discussion. In my younger day when I had $25 dollars, I bought a cheap saber saw, some wood and made a Visible Sawing Illusion. My first victim was placed on an old pressboard table borrowed from the client. That table broke to my embarrasment. The finishing was crappy by todays standards. I bought the same trick last month and got the table included. There was no comparision between the two. One was professional looking the other wasn’t. Was it worth the added cost? Only if one has the money, no time to build, and does not have the talent to do it right. _________________ Dennis Dowhy
Dennis Michael
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aznviet6uy Veteran user Santa Rosa, CA 315 Posts |
I think that buying items is better then building them, because they take less time, but if I had time, I would build, because it gives you better quality, because your aiming for what you want, bought things sometimes don’t fit or it breaks too easily. so yes, if you have time build, if not then buy!!!
shhh..... I see Magicians.....
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Maynooth Regular user Australia 105 Posts |
Scott O
I'm new to the forum so please forgive my late response. I agree with everything DenDowhy says but there is one other factor. I love to make my own props. They are exactly the design and purpose that you want. However, I have, more than once, thought "Hey, I can make that myself" and so have not bought the item. The reality is that sometimes I have made it and sometimes I have missed out because I was too cheap or didn't have the time, the expertise hasn't been a big problem. I think a major part of the purchase is will you actually go to the trouble of making the prop/item. Be brutally honest and then buy it if you think you may not have the time or inclination but you really want it. There's also what I call the 'thank you' factor. I buy things beause it was a great idea that I could make but I didn't think of and there is an obligation to the creator. Which ever you decide, Best witches Maynooth
The race is long and in the end it is only with one's self.
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Well Said Maynooth,
I am going to build the twister, suitcase tables, HAde-E-Levitation and others now for the last six months. It will be interesting when they are done. Time? Yes if I get off the computer and limit my time to the Magic Cafe! Boy do I read and write a lot.
Dennis Michael
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Scott O. Inner circle Midwest 1143 Posts |
I posted my original message over three months ago, and as I read the title now, I think I should have worded it differently. The question isn't really a matter of how cheaply can an item be made, but what are the trade-offs one has to make in order to create a prop verses purchase one.
I assumed that anyone venturing into the make-your-own prop department would have the requisite skill to complete a professional looking prop. I also assumed that those building their own props would not be "ripping off" marketed effects just to save a few bucks. In retrospect I would agree with much of what has been stated so far. Dennis, you summed it up nicely with your three-point post. Do you have the tools, craft skills, and painting skills? Your last post also mentioned time. Time is a BIG factor. We all get the same 24 hours in a day. So, we must make the most of every minute. If you have the time, skill, tools and work area, by all means have a go at creating that prop. It can be a fun process. However, if you are short on time, loath to run a table-saw and your only motivation for building that prop is to save money--think it over again. The process can be drudgery under those conditions. Scott Yeah, I can make a donut. . .but I think I'll go and buy one instead.
Do not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time you will reap a harvest, if you do not give up. Galatians 6:9
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Quote:
I also assumed that those building their own props would not be "ripping off" marketed effects just to save a few bucks. Making your own illusion or magical trick or prop is NOT "ripping off" the creator. Selling it is! If you can make it for personal use, it is not "trudging" on copyrights or anything like that. I made my first egg bag because I didn't have the money to by one. I just bought one last week, because I like the way it looked and I couldn't bother to make one to replace my 40 year old one! If one can afford it then one goes in that direction, however, starting out one could do a miser's dream, egg bag, 21th centry silks, card tricks, paper tears, and produce a nice act for less then $10.00. The know how is the expensive part.
Dennis Michael
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RangeCowboy Regular user Long Beach 198 Posts |
There's another aspect to this. If you're a pro magi making good money then you invest in quality props.
If you are part-time or a xmas/holiday magician it doesn't bear paying $2000 for a good illusion. I envy the good close-up guys doing terrific cards/coin work Their cost of running is minimal. |
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-03-29 13:14, DenDowhy wrote: I disagree! If the item in question is in the "public domain," then I don't have a problem with someone making their own version. But if the item is still the exclusive creation of the original inventor (say, any of Jim Steinmeyer's illusions), then making a copy, even if it's just for personal use, is illegal, and disrespectful of the inventor. It's really a matter of ethics. The inventor came up with the original concept and spent the countless hours testing and reworking their design until everything is as perfect as it can be. If you just make your own copy, you're not compensating the originator for all their work and creativity. If you still want to make your own version, you should arrange to buy the plans from the inventor. That way you're compensating him for his efforts and still saving on labor costs (and sometimes materials). Plus you can modify the prop to fit your own needs and designs. Sometimes the plans are not available. In which case, you'll need to work with the inventor (or whomever he has contracted to build his illusions) to design/modify the prop for your needs. Respect magic inventors... so that they'll be encouraged to keep creating wonderful magic for us to perform!
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
I have over 500 illusion plans, from many of the masters.
If I was to make an illusion that resembles, (say, any of Jim Steinmeyer's illusions) it wouldn't be his. My approach to the way it is done, may be similar, better, or worse. Many of Osborne plans are extensions of Thayer's original designs. Who owns the Disembodied Princess? Or Sawing-in-Half?, or Levitations? Or the Dekolta Chair? There are many Levitations. Based on your premise, I can't do it because it is unethical. There is a line and that line is determined by the law. I purchased the patten for Copperfield's Flying Illusion, Now if I spent the time money to develop it, would it still be mine? Legally yes, now if I was building to sell them, I would be in trouble. Personally, I buy the plans and dream of building. It is so much easier to buy it, but not everyone can do that.
Dennis Michael
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Magicduck Elite user Washington State 484 Posts |
Interesting. I had thought that flying was one of only a handful of illusions that had actually been Copyrited. I am sure I was playing with US patents one day and found it in there. That of course does not mean it is not being sold, but it surprises me.
As far as building, I too have built any number of effects. I understand what both of you fellows are saying. I agree with Phil, and I agree with Den... but it depends greatly on circumstances. If a person makes major changes in an effect and builds it, if it is a closely held secret, then that might be acceptable... depends. I am not willing to agree that "selling" is the key issue. On the other hand, I agree that all the effects Den mentioned would probably be no problem at all 20th century, egg bag and hundreds more. Those effects would clearly be in the public domain. On the other hand, if one figured out the new Copperfield Laser illusion (designed by Fearson) and started performing it... then that would be a problem, whether one was to sell it or not. So I agree with Den's sentiment, but believe there are limits as to what one could build ethically, selling it or just using it one's self. quack |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Remember though, the audience would say there is someone trying to be Cooperfield.
A major drawback of copying a routine. Take the Twister Illusion, a box structure with many variations and colors combining two illusions, the one of the twisting head and one of the twisting body. One could be a steel box, another could be a strange looking contraption. The effect is the same yet the design is different. No copying here. One illusionist even took it a step further and twisted two people together. Now because Fritzkee lists all the ways to do levitations in his book, "The Trick Brain" does it mean you can't use one of them? Just because I buy a leaf blower, attach toilet tissue to it and blow it around I am copying another's routine. It is a site gag that is funny. The idea is to be uniquely different, entertaining, and as origional as possible. This can be done using homemade stuff, without infringing on anyones creativity. For it to work properly, it must be you!
Dennis Michael
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Ray Haddad Regular user Mansfield Center, Connecticut 151 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-03-29 17:20, Philemon wrote: I think a distinction has to be made here between simply building an item and actually using it in performance. If I build an illusion and simply admire it without using it for profit, I feel that I have not exceeded any ethical boundary. The easiest way to learn about magic principles is to try and figure out the best way to do something. That brings up another question. What is the difference between building an illusion that is an exact copy or one that uses a different method but looks the same? Is the form more important than the function? For me, the distinction lies in the usage. If I build it for my own pleasure, there is no ethical problem. If I build it for performance and thereby profit either in money or prestige, I am ethically in the wrong. In point of fact, I never use an item in performance I haven't either purchased or have described in a book, magazine or lecture note which I own. I do mean never. I've waited for many years to find certain books to purchase them just so I could be assured that I own the rights (ethical, not legal) to build an effect. My personal ethics are priceless to me. Best Always, Ray |
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CENDRE Veteran user FRANCE 334 Posts |
But what can we do, except building our own item, when we like the illusion but we are disgusted by it's looking ? In fact, I think that a lot of illusions on the market are very effective to create good magic, but they have not the style I'm looking for.
Sometimes its simply not the aspect I want, but I want to keep the magic principle behind : For example, I recently built a shell, like a coin shell, to do the same effects I can do with a coin and a coin shell. But I want to do these effects with shellfish. So I had to built my own... I don't feel I'm wrong, because sometimes we have to build our own stuff to have exactly what we want.
Il était une fois...
CENDRE Paris FRANCE |
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